>> From the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. ^M00:00:05 ^M00:00:23 >> Good afternoon, and welcome to the African and Middle East Division of the Library of Congress. I'm Mary-Jane Deeb, Chief of the Division, and I'm very happy to see you all here for a very special presentation with Dr. Rana Al Kadi, who will talk to us about a fascinating subject that we have not often addressed in our lecture series, and that is Islamic architecture. This presentation is co-sponsored with the Middle East Institute, and I would like to thank more particularly Kate Seely, the Senior Vice President of the Institute for suggesting that the Library of Congress would be the ideal setting for this lecture. I was the one to thank Diedre, who is here, and I've just met, from the Middle East Institute, there she is, and who has organized this program from this side of the Middle East Institute. But before we introduce our speaker today, I would like to make my usual commercial about our division here. As many of you know, our division is made up of three sections. The African, the Hebraic, and the [inaudible] sections, and we cover over-we're responsible at least-for over 78 countries in the region including in the whole of Africa, Central Asia, the Caucuses, and beyond. And we invite people to use our collections, so this is a reading room, and it is in this reading room that people will come and do research. We're not a lending library. We're not like the public libraries that lend out books. We collect materials. The whole library collects materials from the whole world, in all languages, in all scripts. In fact, this division collects materials in the vernacular-in other words, if you're doing research on Islamic architecture, if the materials are in Arabic or Turkish or in Persian, those materials would be here. But if the materials that you want are in English, French, German, or Italian, or whatever, they're part of the general collection. So we are focused on languages, rather than on national, political entities as such. We're very active in acquiring and developing our collections. We're active in serving our collections. We also, this place, we brief people. We have groups that come, often organized by different organizations, or by the International Visitor's Program, of the State Department, so we do a great deal of interacting with people from our regions. We have had exhibits, major exhibits, in the past few years. And we hope to have more of them. And we also invite scholars and experts who have researched and done work in our areas of responsibility, to share with us their insights, and their findings. So that all of us attending and participating in the programs leave enriched with new information and a better understanding of the cultures and societies whose publications we collect. A case in point, of course, is the scholar we have today. Dr. Al Kadi is from Saudi Arabia, and a native of Medina. And therefore, well located to discuss this important subject, Islamic architecture. However, there is a twist here. Her research on Islamic architecture has focused on the western part of the Muslim world, on North Africa, Spain, rather than on the eastern part. At least this is my understanding. Perhaps she will correct me. And I hope that she will tell us what it was that drew her in that direction. But now, for a fuller introduction of Dr. Al Kadi, is our own Arab world specialist, Dr. Muhannad Salhi. Thank you. ^M00:05:06 [ Applause ] ^M00:05:09 ^M00:05:13 >> Thank you Mary-Jane. Welcome everybody. Thank you for joining us. Rana Al Kadi, a native of Medina, began to carve her place in the world of architecture over 15 years ago, at a time when related jobs for women were few in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. In what Al Kadi describes as a major turning point, she transitioned from a career in petroleum to pursue her passion for architectural design. As she continued to gain expertise in visual arts, as well as architectural planning and interiors, Al Kadi served in the Saudi Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Madrid, Spain. While in Madrid, she earned her PhD from the Universidad Polytechnica, Madrid, in conservation, and restoration of architectural heritage, with a focus on Islamic architecture in the Muslim region. Al Kadi's travels throughout Tunisia, Morocco, Turkey and Spain further enriched her interactions with [inaudible] architectural sites, inspiring her to continue preservation and restoration work in Saudi Arabia, and her beloved home city of Medina. Her expertise in visual arts, architectural planning, and interiors, and conservation, has made Al Kadi a trailblazer among Saudi women in her field. Dr. Al Kadi's research and current work focuses on Islamic domes, and crossed arches in the [inaudible] region, and the origins of Islamic vaults, and the arrival in Spain and preservation intervention in Europe. More recently, Al Kadi has had exhibitions and private preservations projects in historical sites and districts. Blending cultural heritage with fresh technological elements in a perfect illustration of her passion for meeting traditional architecture with the contemporary. Her work offers a fresh look at Islamic architectural elements, the bridge geographical, region and historical contacts. Just a quick note to the audience, while we welcome this event as being videotaped, as you can see, so we welcome you to ask questions during the question and answer period, but please be aware that by asking questions, you are giving your consent to be videotaped, and your voice will be videotaped as well. Also we are going to keep you busy today. There are two sets of surveys, if you're so inclined. There is one from our division, and there is one from the Middle East Institute, so please feel free to fill them. The lovely Miriam from the Middle East Institute has left pens for you over there, if you need a pen. So please feel free to fill the surveys, and leave them at the desk over there at the end of the session. So, without further adieu, Dr. Rana Al Kadi. ^M00:08:23 [ Applause ] ^M00:08:27 >> Thank you for the introduction. I'm so happy to be in this beautiful place, talking about my passion, Islamic architecture. Have you ever thought why it is called Islamic architecture? Like we are talking about civilizations that have covered massive areas from west to east, yet it is named with a belief. If we want to talk about civilizations that were based on religion, like Christian architecture or Jewish architecture, they are never labeled with their beliefs, except Islamic architecture. Have you thought of it? In reality, Islamic architecture is not about a space to play, it's not about a mosque. It is philosophies in art. Philosophies, and selection and creating elements, patterns. So today, I'm going to talk about these philosophies that I have figured out while in my research, doing my PhD study. Let's go back to the birth of Islam. It started in Medina. There was no architecture at that time, only mud buildings, like traditional buildings. Only one structure was in the Arabian Peninsula, which was [foreign term]. A prophet of Islam was died, and they have moved and shifted the capital of Islam to the north, to the [inaudible]. And the first Islamic civilization was called [foreign word spoken]. In Arabic, [Arabic word spoken]. So what has happened, from being in a desert, in an Arabian peninsula, they have shifted, and was exposed to the Roman architecture, Byzantine architecture, and Sassanid architecture. It was like a shock seeing [inaudible], mosaic, domes, seeing this massive architecture of Roman. So they got influenced with these elements. Now, when we go back to Islam...oops, the [foreign word spoken] was a temple. It was not a mosque. The methodologies at that time was converting a temple to a mosque, converting a church to a mosque. So this was the methodology. Why? Economically, easy, shows power. So what has happened, after Islam, this temple was converted, and became a mosque, and it's called The Holy Mosque, and located in Mecca. Now, [inaudible], the faith of Islam has expanded. The east, to Persia, Central Asia, and west to North Africa, and south Europe. So these massive lands were covered with-were consisting of Islamic architecture. When we talk about Islamic architecture, it is classified. ^M00:12:03 Each period of time, there was Islamic dynasty, and each dynasty has its own architecture. By reviewing these elements, you would know the name of the dynasty. So let me just go through these dynasties. The first dynasty was the Umayyad. And then, Abbasid architecture, which is in Arabic, [Arabic term spoken]. Tulunid architecture, which is [foreign word spoken]. Fatimid architecture, which is [foreign word spoken]. Aghlabid architecture, which is [foreign word spoken], Seljuk architecture, which is [foreign word spoken]. Ottoman architecture, which is [foreign word spoken]. And Mughal architecture, which is [foreign word spoken]. So these are part of the Islamic architecture element. Whenever you see them, you understand that these empires were in these lands. How this architecture has transferred-you're talking about massive area. Miles, it's west and east. Like, if you take a plane to these places, it takes hours. What about traveling using camels? So these road trips used to called caravans. A caravan site. In ancient times, there were two routes, one in the summer, and one in the winter. It started from China, going to Afghanistan, from Afghanistan to Khorasan, a road from Afghanistan to Persia, and from Persia going to Iraq, and from Iraq, you go back to Damascus, and from Damascus, you have two roads. You go to Europe, to Italy, or you take another road from Iraq to Egypt, from Egypt to Morocco, and from Morocco to Spain. So these were the stations. The caravan used to have like people used to carry animals, carry food, carry art, carry human being. So it's a long road trip, and culture used to go back and forth. The thing is, when you look and observe the Islamic architecture, just like amazing art with philosophies that sometimes-like it has definition. It can be like all of a sudden this architecture was created. So I had this curiosity of understanding how these patterns were created. The bricks. How they are overlapping, the orientation, the calligraphy. From where was the start? You're talking about decades of art. So, my passion toward this started in Spain. Did anyone go to [inaudible]? Oh, lucky you! One, two, three, four! Oh! I have friends here. Did you get this feeling of like tremendous art, that have significance? That you cannot understand from how much the beauty of it? So I started, because it's part of my culture, wanting to understand these philosophies, and linking religion to these philosophies, how they were developed. So in Granada, which is Alhambra, I was like every time you go there, you feel like you never saw it, because it is lots of art that you cannot observe from one time, from one visit. Observing these architectural elements, the bricks, the stones, the arches, the colors, the domes, the details, and here was the big shock. What is this? How can you identify this element? Is it a dome? Like, what can we call this? It's tremendous art that you cannot explain, and I wanted to know how they have created it. How is the structure, the construction, how many years it took them. So I started searching for philosophies, and understanding, going to vintage shops, trying to buy books, to understand it. And I'm having here, like it is tall, connected with the wall, with the ceiling, but you cannot describe the space. So I started-I figured out one of the great philosophies in art, in Islamic art, which is called the panic of emptiness. And it to me is that a flat form, and you extrude it, so it's like panic. And from here, the concept of these elements started to be created, like they designed these patterns, flat designs, and then they extrude it and make it 3D. So I wanted to know more about these patterns from where they were abstracted. And I found vintage drawings from Persia. And I started to think and analyze, and read more, and surprisingly, these patterns were extracted from Quran. These, the Quran is the book, for Muslims. And they started translating these phrases, these verses, into art. So they calculate, for example, it's written like here, [foreign words spoken]. Seven skies. Here is the vision. Seven skies. So they take number seven, multiply it by two, divide it by four, and these, they started having these equations, and due to these equations, they start to draw their patterns. Let's have an example. Ah, these philosophies, this philosophy wanted me to understand from where geometries started, like and I figured out one of these colors, Persian color, called Muhammad Al Khwarizmi. He is the scholar who invented geometry. At that time, it was just in the 9th Century. This is [foreign word spoken]. People started trying to understand it, and there was a boom, and evolution, and understanding these geometries. So through caravan roads, these scholars started to travel around. The scholars started to move from places from-through the caravans, and this knowledge started to be like quite a fashion, like it is started to be the knowledge, like a trend. Like when they invented computers, everyone wanted to learn it. And now we're with the iPhones and more stuff, they keep inventing things. ^M00:20:14 So at that time, geometry was an invention, and they started applying it into architecture and to pattern, and to design, and to [inaudible], and it became part of the Islamic culture. This took me to another philosopher, who invented the social signs. Ibn Khaldun, one of the famous historians, who has written a book called Al Muqaddimah, which is an introduction. This book is consists of lots of philosophies, and what is unique about Ibn Khaldun, that there is link between my thinking and his. He linked social science with history and civilizations, and on the other hand, I have this fashion of linking social science to architecture, why these buildings were created. These buildings were created for humans. What is behind this, so I wanted to dig more, into Ibn Khaldun, and understand his way of thinking, because he analyzed civilization and history. And I decided to go to have a trip to his neighborhood. So I moved from south Europe to North Africa. And specifically, to his city, which is Tunis. Anyone went to Tunis? Any friends? Oh, you're my friend [laughter], you traveled a lot. We should talk about this, your travels. The thing is, I wanted to understand, like, because you cannot think there is something about the environment, like my passion started in Spain. I wanted to know what was the passion behind Ibn Khaldun's studies? So I went to his neighborhood, no one went to his neighborhood except me-oh, we're friends [laughter]. I wanted to live the past with an eye of the present. I wanted to analyze it myself. I didn't want to depend on books and resources. I went to his mosque, where he used to teach, and wanted to dig more into the oldest city. Ibn Khaldun quoted, "History appears to be just a story, but at its core, it's more of observation and investigation." Which made me want to know more, me. I wanted to know from my eye. I wanted to observe it myself. And I ended by quoting "Observation is the key to history." It links you to stories. It takes you to dig and search for philosophies. So I wanted to visit the oldest city in North Africa, which is in Tunis, and it's called Kairouan [laughs]. Al Kairouan is the oldest Islamic city in North Africa. I wanted to know what are the architectural monuments in this land. And following the first steps and arrival of Islam. I started taking photos, like Japanese, like Japanese here, like taking pictures, as much as I can. It was so hot, you will never imagine. I know I am from Saudi, I understand this, but you would never understand what hot means until you go to Kairouan, and it was like thinking, why would people build a civilization, mosque, and do these arts, in a desert. Which made me think one of the Islamic philosophies. And I wanted to dig and go back to the-back to history. And go to the spot where the first Islamic civilization started, which is in Damascus. I went to double check on the form of the mosques and compare between [inaudible] and North Africa, Tunis, and then Damascus, and I figured out great similarity in the form of mosque. But guess what! This mosque was a church. The elements that the great mosque, the great mosque of Damascus were part of the Byzantine architecture. A tower, the chamber hall, the dome. So Muslims, when the Islam religion, when it expanded and reached the [inaudible], they were exposed to these cultures, and they started adapting elements from the past. The tower, the Christian tower, or a part of the Byzantine architecture became Minarets. And the chamber halls were used as well in the Islamic architecture, this is the entrance, before you enter the prayer hall, and they also adopted the domes. So I wanted to double check, and the all cities, of the whole land, and I went to Fes, in Morocco. It is the oldest city in Morocco. And different art. Different forms. If we compare it is more similar to Andalusia. So Morocco and Andalusia have similarities, while Kairouan and Damascus have similarity. So there are forms. The mosque are not one structure, or one form. So I had to, and first, I figured out the first Islamic creation which is the [inaudible], it was not extracted from other civilizations, and it was created by Muslims. It is a dome, cross-arched, forming a dome, and they were similar to the one in Andalusia, and they are considered the first architectural elements created by Muslims. I have-as I have said before, they were influenced with previous elements, but this was an Islamic creation, and the patterns are geometrical. Digging in the history, the years, checking what was built before the other, and I figured out that this, in Spain, the first cross-vaults were created in Spain. So I went back home [inaudible], double checking and trying to understand how these philosophies, how this creation have started, architectural creation has started. And we go back to the Panic of Emptiness. Where the pattern, the flat patterns, became extruded, 3D, which goes back to the [inaudible] signs. So they created on these philosophies, to create an art. These are the famous cross vaults. And the first in Cordoba. Then another style. Another form. And the 10th century, in Zaragoza. Ibn Khaldun says the professions are perfected, and became plenty, when the demand for them increased. I quote, "If a profession is in great demand, people will learn it." Like my mom, she knew how to use What's Up, and my mobile never stopped, so whenever you need to know something, it become like the demand of it became great. And here comes, when Muslims started to apply these geometrical patterns into the elements. As you can see, in Iran, they started Isfahan, and Termiz, and in Central Asia, they started using these geometrical patterns into minarets, into domes, into the façades, exteriors, interiors, patterns, geometrical patterns became part of the Islamic culture. Here are other types, when they have mixed the tiles with the bricks. So it became the trend. ^M00:30:02 And it became part of the Islamic architectural identity. And as we have said before, these patterns are not random designs, always extracted from Islamic disciplines, from Quranic, versus, now these patterns became part of an architectural design, like if you can see, on the side, a Muqarnas, is that these patterns became 3D, so it started to be part of the Islamic culture in building, having these 3D monuments, instead of having flat patterns. Examples of a Muqarnas. Ceilings, in Morocco, and Alhambra, again. So my study and trip and journey going back and forth leads me back to a Muqarnas where I started, Alhambra, to try to understand how this architectural element was developed. And my studies about these philosophies and geometrical designs, takes me back to Alhambra. Oops. This is supposed to be me [laughter]. Ibn Khaldun quote, "Language is one side of people's thoughts." And a quote, "Language is a way to explore history." Normally, when we read about any subject that interests us, we read it from looking for our language, and from my observation and study, I figured out it's wrong. If you want to know a certain science, you have to know it with the language of the person who have written it. Because translation changes the meaning, changes the philosophy, and from the whole trips, I understood, understanding people's way of thinking. The way to explain that knowledge is very important, that's why I try to understand Persian, start to understand Spanish, and even [inaudible], which is the language of Morocco. And that is the whole story of the geometrical Islamic art, and I was like, I took you through the journey to understand my philosophy, and the Panic of the Emptiness philosophy that was created by Muslims, and started to travel around the massive lands from east to west. Thank you for being here today. ^M00:32:57 [ Applause ] ^M00:33:03 >> Thank you. Have time for question and answer. Okay? >> I'd like to know if the cross [inaudible], the cross-hatch dome was meant to function like the buttresses, and some European domes to keep the weight off it? Do you know if that was built into Islam, that they used for this process? >> The question is were the cross hatched domes meant to- >> Beyond the design- >> Beyond the design, were they meant to- >> Distribute the weight of the dome. Like buttresses are in some European architectural domes. >> Were they meant to distribute the weight of the design like the buttresses in the- >> And please, again? >> Were the cross hatch domes meant to distribute the weight, like in the European- >> Buttresses. >> Buttresses. >> Amazing, it's not. And that was the great study that Spanish people, trying to understand the construction of the gothic vaults, and the Islamic vaults. The thing is, they are patterns, and they are-the weight goes to the spoke squinches [assumed spelling] on the corners. That was, that is why the squinches are designed in a [inaudible], which has niches, so they are only forms that forming the dome, but they don't carry the structure of the vault. Now, but in the gothic designs, they carry the vault. That's why they are built with stone. On the other hand, Islamic architecture, they used to use bricks, and the bricks are very light in weight, and very easy to form. That's why most of the Islamic architecture used to use bricks, although the basis, the foundation of the architectural buildings are from big stones, to carry the load of the building, but then they use bricks. This is very deep question about the vaults. >> Please. >> Originally some new mosques built in [inaudible], do they follow any of this pattern? >> The question is the new mosques built in- >> In Senegal. >> In Senegal, do they follow the same pattern as- >> The what? >> The new mosques built in Senegal. Do they follow the same? >> I need to see a picture, Senegal? >> Do they have [inaudible] minarets? >> Conical, conical vaults? >> The minaret [inaudible]- >> Ah these, yeah. These are Islamic, but they are conical and they are famed during the dynasty called Rustamid. It is Rustamid Dynasty. And they are not-they are Islamic, but they are not-like they are branch. And they have their own architectural elements, and they are conical. Did you visit the-oh! How are they from inside? >> They're [inaudible]- >> Yeah. They are built by bricks. They are built by bricks, and even in Tanzania, there are samples of them, they famed in Africa, yeah, you're right, but only in Africa. ^M00:36:56 [ Inaudible Comments ] ^M00:37:02 >> What did he say? >> They're financed by Saudi Arabia, the ones built in Tanzania. >> I'm not sure about this information. Yeah. But there is architecture for the desert people who live in the desert, and normally they use mud, but we don't have in Saudi these conical, pointed vaults. But I'll double check, and this is the beauty about researching, that you get an information and you dig on, and go and maybe visit Senegal, after this question. >> Thank you very much for your presentation, beautiful images, I wanted to ask you, in terms of the materials, you already alluded to it, but in terms of the materials, did the different types of architecture that existed throughout this large region that you show, was it adapted to the environment? In other words, some environments are more rocky, some have marble, others have, you know, sand, build-build glass, or mosaics, and so, were the differences in architecture also affected by the environment? Some countries is more rain, others there is snow, others are warm, and hot, so-the styles, and the materials, were they affected by the environment? >> The question is were the styles affected by the environment, and the materials. Were the styles and the materials affected by the environments of these places? >> Yes, of course, because as you saw, that Ottoman empire, because marble [inaudible] and even the Byzantine, used to use mosaic, for the easy, like the materials are very easy to get, while in other places, they used to use mud, because it's easy to use in form, and it's more easy to get, so that's why there are different styles, but yet, they use the same architectural elements. The minarets are always there, using different materials. The dome is always there, but using different materials. So the architectural elements are similar, but the way of building them, the design, the style, different, due to the area and the location. >> And the related to that, do those materials then affect how a dome is built, because some materials are heavier, others are lighter. So- >> In terms, if we're talking about vaults, all Islamic architecture, in all their periods of time, they have used the bricks. Because easy to form. Because these vaults are not carrying, so they can play and form the vaults in different designs. That's why we see the vaults in Andalusia, different than Iran, different than in [inaudible], they have different designs. But they use the same material. ^M00:40:31 Because you-if you use the stone, different construction methods. >> I actually have a question. You mentioned the philosophy behind the building of the-you mentioned the freedom of the- >> The panic of the emptiness- >> Panic of Emptiness. Can you elaborate on that a little bit more on that, can you tell us more about that? Yeah? >> Now the thing is, this theory actually I've learned it in Spain, because Andalusia was the greatest like peak of Islamic architecture, was in Andalusia, and they emphasize in universities a lot about Islamic architecture, and it became part of the Spanish culture, like you go to kindergarten school, and they teach them how these patterns are built, because it is part of their history. It became part of their heritage, although it was built by Muslims, but is the culture of the land. So they teach them these, and what is nice, that they kept the names. There are 3,000 world, and even the vocabulary of the Islamic architecture still use the same-you see Spanish person talking to you saying [Islamic term spoken], saying [Islamic term spoken], saying [Islamic term spoken], so these became part of the culture of the city. And so I wanted to know more, because it's an opportunity, I am there, and I wanted to study more about the Islamic architecture, and I started digging in this, and in our university [inaudible] considered one of the very complicated architectural elements, like until now, lots of researchers trying to understand how these elements, and parts, connected together. Some are connected with each other, some are attached. So there are eight designs of different construction methods. Eight designs of [inaudible]. So in Spain, they do lots of research about [inaudible]. Lots of research, and I felt like they are like if I knew, I wanted to know this. And they told me about how to analyze these patterns. They use the AutoCAD and programs to flatten these images, and draw these patterns, and extrude them again, and then they use it in the university, they have workshops to understand [inaudible]. So basically it is about a pattern, geometrical pattern, connected, overlapped, whatever is designed, like they do that in 3D. They flatten the image, then they start understanding how these patterns are drawn, then they extrude it and that. So it's basically about a flat, and then you extrude it, to become 3D. Which was long time ago the 3D, now we are in AutoCAD, understanding how to extrude these elements, but it's amazing that they discovered this long time ago, and we never knew about it. Or I didn't know about it [laughter]. >> Just a follow-up question, how does this Andalusian philosophy affect other areas in the Islamic world, Hispanic, of- >> The thing is of, that this philosophy became part of the [foreign term spoken], when they invented the geometry. So [foreign term spoken] was in Egypt, and Morocco, and Persia, and central Asia. It became part of the architectural construction and art. ^M00:44:37 [ Inaudible Question ] ^M00:45:12 >> So the question is, how do you account for the other decorative elements in the mosques in various regions of the Islamic world, aside from the- >> How do? How do? >> With regard to this philosophy, what about the other decorative elements, aside from the basic structures? So the different decorative elements, say in Morocco, in Spain and- >> Yeah. The thing is, this philosophy only used for 3D elements, like the patterns used in [foreign word spoken], and like the mosque is consist of court, dome, there are vaults in some mosques, there is minaret, there is [inaudible], so the thing is, this philosophy is only applied for 3D architectural elements. The other decorative patterns do not apply, this philosophy does not apply on the patterns that are used into calligraphy, for example, or the geometrical patterns and tiles, it is only used for the 3D, because it's panic, it's extruding. I am not sure if I answered your question, actually, if- ^M00:46:30 [ Inaudible ] ^M00:47:00 >> Can you get? >> Yeah, like the arches, the Quranic designs, and so on, are these also part of this philosophy or? >> The arches are element, construction elements, they carry, they carry load. We are talking about forms. Like the [foreign word spoken] doesn't carry. It is only niches, or it's only like ornamentation but 3D ornamentations, they are not structures. The dome, the Muqarnas dome is a dome, that's why it's called Muquarnas dome, because these niches are attached to the dome. So the calligraphy, they are not 3D, unless you're using bricks and designing. So it is not extruding. You are only overlapping bricks, and making designs with tiles or bricks, and calligraphy or in patterns, but this philosophy only exists for 3D, like the arches, and the [inaudible], the arches forming, it was flat design, and it extruded to become 3D. The Muqarnas is also a flat design, and it started building niches to create this Muqarnas. So this philosophy only for 3D. Not a pattern, or a calligraphy. It is other methodologies. Using other methods. You-it is, we need to read more about it, because I understood it in Andalusia, they teach it in school, part of a Muqarnas philosophy. >> I'm sorry, this is so fascinating to me because my background is our history. I wanted to find out if the churches that were converted into mosques, because churches will typically use human forms, and Islamic architecture does not, were those human forms removed from all the churches that were converted to mosques, or did they somehow re-design them so they didn't appear as- >> Okay the question is the churches that were converted into human-into human-into mosques, that had human forms in them. Since mosques do not use human forms, were they incorporated, were they changed? What happened to the human forms that were in churches, basically is that your question? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Example for what you have said is [foreign word spoken], in Turkey, they used to have Jesus drawings and figures, but when it was converted to be a mosque, they covered it with plasters and paints, because in Islam, they are forbidden. It is part of their religious discipline, so we don't use figures. But the Ottoman empire later had used some animals while drawing, so every time, period of time, there was patterns and ornamentations, that is why it is important to travel and observe yourself. Because if you read enough information and you see figures, you understood that maybe other civilizations were there, and you started digging, and understanding. ^M00:50:23 So but they are basically in Islam, figures are not allowed to be used, but normally they-yeah, just-right. >> I wanted to ask you about the structure of the courtyard, you know, and what the square form and the buildings next to it, is that a uniform thing you find around the region? What-and what is the original design? Why is it square courtyard? >> The question is about the structure of the courtyard. Is that an original design, and what is the basis of it, basically. Is it everywhere? Is it universal? >> I love your question. I love your question, because when studying, I figured out that the mosque, the form of the mosque would influence with two structures, a [foreign word spoken], which is the black, if you can see in Iran there are mosques which are cubic, which is influenced with the [foreign word spoken], and the other one, which is the court, was influenced with the prophet Mohammed mosque. When prophet Mohammed moved from Mecca to Medina, and he settled there, he built a mosque with a chunk of palm tree and mud, and there was a court. This type of plan, called hypo-style. And it was extracted from Greek, where they used to use lots of columns, and covered with a platform. So, basically in Islam, during the history of Islamic civilization, only two forms of Islamic mosques, one is the prophet Mohammed, which has a court, and then was developed, expanded, changed, due to the Islamic dynasty, through history. And the other one, which famed in Persia, and central Asia, is the cubic one. So you can see only two forms, and like in Turkey, they started, instead of using one dome, they started using several domes, so the elements were changed due to the dynasties, but the form of mosque, there are only two. And then would classify to eight, but we're talking about the whole form, like how to design. Some have bigger chamber hall, less-more minaret, more minarets, the form changes, but the influence with the holy cities, holy structures. ^M00:53:09 ^M00:53:13 >> Okay well thank you very much Dr. Rana Al Kadi, thank you all for coming. Please fill out your surveys and- ^M00:53:21 [ Applause ] ^M00:54:26 >> This has been a presentation of the Library of Congress. Visit us at LOC.gov.