>> From the Library of Congress in Washington, DC. ^M00:00:05 ^M00:00:19 >> So welcome back to the afternoon. Thank you all for coming back so promptly and it's with much pleasure I hand over to Tom Learner to introduce the panel. Tom Learner, as you all know, is the Head of Science at the Getty Conservation Institute and we always joke about the fact that we usually have to go out of the country to see each other so I will hand over to Tom to introduce our panel. >> Thank you, Fenella. We're missing one speaker, who are we missing? Oh, here we go. I'm going to keep my comments very, very brief because we ran over slightly this morning and we have four fantastic speakers now, each with 20 minutes so I don't want to eat anything into that at all. The bios for each speaker are in your pack. This is a pretty impressive panel in case you haven't figured this out. I was going to say four heavyweights from Europe. I don't want to use that term in any sort of mean way but if these were people applying for the European Council Research Grants these would be the advanced level, four very, very established figures in the European side of the conservation science so I believe Michel you're up first. I'd like to welcome Michel Menu from the [inaudible] in Paris. >> I will move closer to you. So access is the principle aim of the integrated infrastructure initiative which is [inaudible] so as Luca said it's service given to the community in order to get access to cutting edge facilities and [inaudible] based system installed inside the Louvre Museum in Paris, was at the beginning of this [inaudible] after the first European project called [inaudible] was the only fixed lab facility. Building the theory of one message I wanted to emphasize and to point out after Luca is that this opportunity we built with Bruno Brunetti and Antonio Sgamellotti at the beginning, it is the development of this theory of icubes and LabTech was a networking project [inaudible] enables us to have in the future a permanent infrastructure and the other thing I have to emphasize is that it's [inaudible] what is difficult to give a definition for that is heritage science is natural science follows cultural heritage and also the data process. So FIXLAB is inside IPERION now, given by four facilities and, two in Hungary, one is in Debrecen, one is in Budapest and two in France, Aglae inside the Louvre Palace and SOLEIL is Synchrotron in Paris, near Paris. I will first of all describe the four facilities in brief and give some highlights which have been achieved during [inaudible]. The purpose of FIXLAB is to give access to large facilities. Access is provided by complementary nondestructive instrumentation which gives barely not visible but elemental, structural and chemical analysis and with the neutron project I will show that we are able also to do some imaging. First, the first facility in Hungary is Atomki in Debrecen. There's access to iron beam techniques through Van de Graff particle accelerator and Zita [inaudible] is the coordinator, the head of this project, the access for cultural help so in brief, IBA is a set of different techniques which are energetic particles inducing several excitations of atoms and gives clues in order to have a total elemental analysis with [inaudible] which maybe you are more familiar with x-ray fluoresce, it's almost the same and for the light elements [inaudible] for instance you can use the nuclear reactions. You may have also analysis information in depth from the first micrometers from the surface. In Atomki, they have a nuclear micro problem that means in vacuum, they can have a beam spot of one micrometer in diameter and can get elemental maps or a concentration at this stage but an external microbeam is also available with about 20, 30 micrometers in diameter because you have a spread of diffusion of the beam and you may analyze directly the object without putting in vacuum, without any preparation. That's the team, Zika is here and we know the IPERION community and know her and also her colleagues here. The second facility is Budapest Neutron Center associated with the Wigner Center and it's based on the nuclear neutron reactor and gives several techniques I will show now. The neutrons are used for elemental analysis. You may get this kind of analysis. You can also achieve structural studies with neutron defraction or small angle neutron scattering and also with the neutrons it's used for imaging. This example is given for an Egyptian jar and the imaging with neutrons of this jar was most interesting in order to understand what the content of the jar was. That's the team. The head of the project is [inaudible], the BND welcome desk is [inaudible] and also [inaudible] is the coordinator of the access to BNC. The third facility is SOLEIL, it's a synchrotron of the third generation which has been implemented a few years ago south of Paris in Gif-sur-Yvette. Among 20 beam lights, about 11 beamlines can be used for [inaudible]. These are the applications you may get. Frederique [inaudible] is the leader for IPERION, the task leader for SOLEIL. ^M00:10:04 You may have tomography beamlines at SOLEIL with ANATOMIX, PSICHE, and PUMA. I will come back to PUMA a little bit later on and give some information with if you increase the resolution you decrease the energy and so on. You have also microbeam lines at SOLEIL. You have five beam lines which can be used for cultural heritage purposes. What is also said is that this project is enhanced not only on cultural heritage artifacts per se but also with paleontological artifacts. PUMA is the beamline which is photons utilizes materiaux anciens, it's an acronym and it has been optimized for ancient materials so that means cultural and paleontological materials and 60 percent of the beamtime will be allocated for ancient materials so the description of PUMA and this beamline, which develops ongoing at the moment will be open in about a year from now. That's the team SOLEIL, more than 300 people so it's headed by [inaudible] and [inaudible] is somewhere here. He's barely visible but Frederick is here. AGLAE in my laboratory and a long time ago I installed this machine and at the moment it's stopped for renewing and for new, to be completely transformed and to be completely automatized to give better service to the people and so it's a tandem accelerator. It's an American tandem accelerator from Middleton Wisconsin Medicine and this is the only accelerator which is 100 percent devoted to cultural heritage. Claire [inaudible] who is here, is now the leader of the group with three other engineers [inaudible]. So now, for the recent application and some highlights. The first highlight was sent to me by Atomki and by Zita. They analyzed glass weights in order to answer to detailed composition of this glass weights of the [inaudible]. Identification of the traces and the other colors and in order to look at the technology and at the same time, the same Portuguese team sent medieval glass from a site in Italy and here are the samples which are embedded in resin and the questions are almost the same composition characterization and also the understanding of the alteration of the glass. Another highlight has been given to me by the Budapest Nation Center and they analyzed by Daniella DeMartino [assumed spelling] some artifacts from the Milano Cathedral and they analyzed and wanted to understand the deterioration of [inaudible] which strengthens the architecture of the cathedral. You have to trust me about it because that's deep into, it's not bright enough but here you have cracks which are visible by the naked eye but others are not invisible and has been revealed to light with the neutron tomography and even cracks considerably weaken the strength of the materials and it was interesting for the architects in order to restore the cathedral. Another example briefly concerns this processional cross with the same applicant Daniella DeMartino, from an abbey in Italy close to Milano and the results of that was used not only gamma activation but also some XRF x-ray fluorescence and other techniques. It's a silver cross which is gilded and they will be able to confirm through the presence of mercury the amalgam technique. The last highlight I wanted to present is one which has been achieved in my laboratory, the Medieval Kashi project. It's a lustered ceramics from Iran and this map shows the invention of the lustered ceramics in Mesopotamia in the eighth century of the Christ and this technique spread all over the Mediterranean basin to arrive in Italy during the renaissance period so Egypt, Madrid, Spain, and this technique continued at the same time. This object is so valuable but like this, you are not allowed to sample them and so ion beam techniques are very interesting in order to show how the stratification of the lustre has been achieved during this time and so we have this technique called [inaudible] by scattering spectrometry and through processing the spectra you may analyze the different thickness of the lustre proper which is small metallic nano particles which are embedded inside the glaze of the ceramics and processing that, you may achieve the thickness of the coating of nano particles, the thickness of the glaze, and how deep are these nano particles embedded inside the glaze. And so, you can achieve through that this stratography and the glaze, the lustre, the glaze again, and the ceramic body. So thank you for your attention. ^M00:19:08 [ Applause ] ^M00:19:15 >> Thank you Michel. We'll get through the four presentations and then there will be a Q&A answer session at the end. Our second speaker will be speaking about the second of the three services under IPERION's CH dealing with transnational access so you just heard about the FIXLAB work package. Antonio Sgamellotti, Professor Emeritus from Universita di Perugia will now talk us through the MOLAB work package looking at mobile laboratories. ^M00:19:48 ^M00:19:59 >> Thank you very much so I will speak about the mobile laboratory and archives in IPERION CH and we start with the archives. Archives were introduced in the last project in CHARISMA [phonetic] and it was a very successful platform. It's the access to the archive or European museum in cultural heritage institution. We started with six institutions, The National Gallery in London, the Opificio delle Pietre Dure in Florence, the Centre de Recherche et de Restauration in Paris, the British Museum in London, the Museo Nacional del Prado in Madrid and the Cultural Heritage Agency of the Netherlands. In IPERION, there was an increase of the institution giving the service. We now have the Instituto del Cultural de Madrid, the Centre for Art Technological Studies and Conservation of Copenhagen, the Rathgen Museum in Berlin and the Instituut Royaal du Patrimoine artistique in Brussel. This is a physical assess, it's not a visual assess. The archive contains a lot of documentation but not just documentation, also samples, also cross sections and so on and so forth and those are in different sizes, in different nations so some examples for instance, in Opificio della Pietre Dure you get a lot of information concerning Rafael data, cross sections refractography. In the British museum you get information about the technique of old statue as in ancient times and then you get cross section, then you have a spectra, then you have map so a lot of documentation which can be very, very useful. Useful to whom? To each other, you are always the chairperson [laughter]. Useful to whom? To researchers, that they want to collect information for instance on paintings, on the material, colors, support, stratigraphy and composition of grounds. Art historians or archaeologists what want to carry on provenance studies on different techniques, conservators and scientists. It's not working properly but it doesn't matter, there were some examples for instance one researcher from Czechoslovakia went to the Opificio della Pietre Dure to study the ground of the 16th century painting and there was a lot of information. This is a typical case. This is the [inaudible] the famous [inaudible]. It's a tryptic but the three parts are in three different museums in Florence in [inaudible], in the National Gallery in London and the other one is in Louvre, of course [laughter]. I always say [inaudible]. This was a case of a researcher on this triptych and the best way was to go to the archives of these three important institutions where a lot of information is present. In this you'll see some of the people working in Madrid, in London, and in Paris in a very relaxed atmosphere and also the environment is very pleasant also. Now let's go to the mobile laboratory which together with the FIXLAB was the first infrastructure in the European project [inaudible] just these two infrastructures and then you see things are going to increase according to the needs of the cultural heritage community. In the previous CHARISMA, we had just two providers [inaudible] Perugia and the Florence CNR and then the Universita di Perugia and very recently also a regional laboratory in [inaudible] joined to this joint project. And then the CNRS in Paris, these were the two provides in the previous. Now we have some more providers, FORTH Foundation for Research and Technology in Hellas, Heraklion, The Nicolaus Copernicus University in Torun in Poland and the Aachen University in Germany. Which are the users? The user conservator-restorers, who carry out research on innovative methods in restoration and preservation just to make an example, conservation scientists who want to integrate their measurements by micro-sampling with non-invasive investigations and of course art historians and archaeologists who want to study execution techniques in painting, ceramics, sculpture and a lot of art works. A few examples, this is a study that was done by the MOLAB and the title was [inaudible] studies on the last judgment, which is [inaudible] and is in the [inaudible] museum in Poland. What was the aim of the project? It was to study changes in design, details in the composition, stages of under-drawing, different characters of paint layers in order to identify material, technique, and also the artist because probably it's not just [inaudible] is present in these big paintings and the [inaudible] of the Academy of Fine Arts in [inaudible]. I just want to point upon an important which is in accord to the European rules [inaudible] in the data, the intellectual properties of the results according to the European rules belong to the users. They do not belong to the MOLAB operators but to the users. Very often at the end there is a collaboration and very often there is a common publication. That was a very, in a way, long project because three MOLAB facilities were involved, CNR, the Universita di Perugia and the CNRS for 15 days of in situ access. Usually the intervention lasts five days and you spend a lot of time traveling. I want to say that in the last 12 years, we have been traveling for more than 200,000 kilometers in Euro which is quite a lot. Fifteen days, because there were three different MOLAB facilities operating with 10 MOLAB operatos, four users, and sis non-invasive instruments. ^M00:30:08 Which are here, XRF, mid and near infrared, UV visible spectroscopy, XRD, multi-spectral scanning. This is the MOLAB working. Fortunately, there were three separate parts of the tryptic so they were able to work at the same time on the three different parts and we got a lot of results. I just want to show some of them. For instance, using FTIR and also XRD and I want to stress the importance to use different techniques to get some useful results. In the gem of St. Michael's there is pure lazurite while in the blue dress of Mary there is lazurite and lazurite with little amount of diopside and azurite in the [inaudible] while in the reflection of the blue dress from this piece there is azurite. The infrared didn't have good results on this case but we were able to get interesting results using the refractions. For instance, we were able to detect the lead tin yellow type I, the cinnabar, the [inaudible] hydrocerussite and cerussite and also using UV visible [inaudible]. Very, very interesting were the results with the reflector. Some results were already known this is for instance the visible light and this is the x-ray ready made by the user in Warsaw and also there was some refractograpy made but look at the difference in how you can see the details using the refractography of the [inaudible] CNR in Florence. You can see easily all the details and according to these results it's probably the [inaudible]. Research is still in progress from this one. All this results were reported, one of the chapters of Science and Art, the Painted Surface by the Royal Society of London, of which I am one of the [inaudible] together with my colleague [inaudible]. And as you can see, this is a joint publication between the user [inaudible] and the MOLAB operator [inaudible]. Passing from the previous CHARISMA to the [inaudible] there was also an increase of technique. We already had point chemical analysis but we include more other techniques like multi/hyper spectral imaging and the visible near and far infrared and also x-ray fluorescence scanning including 3D surface and volume image which were implemented in the joint research activity of the previous project. There is a strong connection between the joint research activity which has the mission to improve the facilities in the MOLAB so they implement new instrumentation and once they were tested and they are well functioning, they became part of the MOLAB so there is just a few examples [inaudible]. You see, this is a collaboration with the [inaudible]. This painting of the 15th century was completely black probably due to fire in the chapel and it was almost impossible to read but look through mapping, the different elements lead, copper, alum, gold and iron, you can see easily and so you can be a good guy in the restoration process. Spectral imaging, this is some of the work that University of Perugia did in which it was possible apart from the lead [inaudible] to detect some important pigments like [inaudible] in red, emerald green which is in green and aquamarine, which is in blue. Then, from the fourth digital [inaudible] it was used to reveal in situ detachments, cracks and other defects. The purpose was the examination of 19th century ceiling to assess detachment and cracks through the defect map, risk map comparison with conservators maps. This is a mobile single site [inaudible] provided by [inaudible] and you can get information about the depth profiling of hydrogen containing materials in stone, mortar, paintings and so forth. [Inaudible] tomography provided by Torun in Poland for examination of layered structures in easel paintings and this is a project in collaboration with the Opificio della Pietre Dure under Leonardo and that's all. The next call is coming soon the 15th of February. Usually there are two calls which are 15th of September and 15th of February so if you are interested, the call is almost ready to be announced. Thank you very much. ^M00:37:40 [ Applause ] ^M00:37:47 >> Thank you Antonio, and I know there'll be some questions about submitting samples and projects for these things when we got to Q&A. Our third speaker is Jorgen Wadum, who seems to be Director of many, many places in Copenhagen but the quickest way is perhaps to talk about the new Center for Art Technological Studies and Conservation called CATS, and Jorgen is going to be talking about the corporation networking side of IPERION CH so Jorgen. >> Thank you very much. Well, you introduced the whole gang up here as being very old and mature consortium and true you are of course however, CATS, which is a small national research infrastructure comprising the National Museum of Denmark, the National Gallery of Denmark with which I'm working, and the training school facilities at the Royal Academy of Fine Arts Training for Conservators, we only joined this group of excellent researchers very recently when IPERION was established, after all the other preparatory research infrastructures so we are entirely new in this but never the less, we have been tasked with the task of facilitating a corporation and networking internally within IPERION and also to reach out to users and users outside IPERION in order to promote European cultural heritage science and we are of course, as you can see on the slide, and which you will have on the website of this institute afterwards, we wanted to foster cooperation and action with heritage science communities, all users of the transnational access points that we just heard about, and potential scientific industrial partners. We also want to address more widely the multidisciplinary researchers and stakeholder's concerns with this research area including both conservators but also curators, historians, archaeologists and whoever is working with cultural heritage optics also within as I said, industry or institutions or small and medium sized enterprises. ^M00:40:00 The specific objectives are many and you can see them here. It's focused on high level advocacy of the expert meetings, we want to make hands on workshops, I'm going to mention a few in a moment, seminars, and to disseminate this as widely as possible and hopefully to engage as many of you as possible in the audiences when they are open for everybody but we also organize more internal workshops where it is the IPERION partners that collaborate with maybe a few stakeholders that we take in to be operating not within a vacuum but within still the surrounding environment. We also want to carry out a number of best practices and protocols to develop this to publish them for all of you and to carry out foresight studies as you can see in order to identify future research priorities, what we heard about earlier today and opportunities for innovation in this. You can see the acronyms CATS, and CNR, and ND and [inaudible], they are the institutions that are in charge of these individual projects within work packets nine. What we are doing in CATS is trying to take care of the knowledge exchange activities, establishing these best practice protocols together with the CNR so Susanna Bracci, who is not here and with Marika Spring, representing the National Gallery we worked on these foresight studies I just mentioned and Erik Buelinckx from KIK-IRPA will work on creating digital data management and procedures for this. This will start later on in the project and we do not have much to share on this from my side at this very moment. We have a lot of deliverables that we want to share that will be visible on our website and eventually published also on other media, reports and surveys, analytical data expectations, we have recommendations of best practice etc. We have a whole range of deliverables that you can see on the IPERION home page and they go. We are supposed to have a very busy four years of research and presentations as you can see. Well, some of these activities have taken place of course. We have had an International Conference on Glazed Ceramics in Architectural Heritage which was the first conference we organized within the current IPERION network and the aim of this conference was to discuss [inaudible] and other architectural glaze ceramics of historic interest manufactured and applied anywhere that they may have been, their characteristics, the decay, and the conservation of these kinds of objects. It was a conference that was attended by 81 delegates from a lot of different countries. Well, that was the top one. The second one was more internal workshop with just a few stakeholders from outside the conservation/restoration community of the Netherlands, Cleaning of Paintings and Protection of Metals. It was a workshop organized by [inaudible] from the [inaudible] in Amsterdam in collaboration also with a joint project initiative research project called CMOP which is an abbreviation of Cleaning of Modern Oil Paints, which is a consortium between the University of Amsterdam, the Tate, the Getty, and a number of other partners that work on identifying safe cleaning of modern oil paints. Again, there's a relationship with [inaudible], which is another project running until 2018 actually. It is [inaudible] who is sitting here in the auditorium who is the project leader of this project about the cleaning of modern oil paints but the workshop there was more of internal character defining what kind of practice and projects would be most relevant. Another project was Investigating Heritage Material with Safer Ion and Photon Beam Experiments. It took place as a collaboration between the [inaudible] in Paris and the meeting was also there, attended by a huge crowd 40 participants and 30 guests from aound the world. Eighteen countries were represented and the program included a part from [inaudible] presenting also recent advances, also round tables, [inaudible] and open sessions for the people attending this meeting. In Copenhagen, organized in collaboration between the Prado and the National Gallery in London, CATS hosted a workshop called Preparation for Painting, Grounds and Primings in European Paintings 1500 to 1800, and this was a workshop, which is operating very closely with workshop eight, which is led by Joe Padfield and Marika Spring from the National Gallery. You will hear more about this from Joe in a while, I'm sure. quantities of data like cross-sections that we have heard about in the previous speaker will lie in archives and be accessible via arts lab but if we could digitize them and put them online, we could share them with the world and you could share yours with us probably. So, the idea is to create a Europe-wide scale collaborative development between conservation science and digital documentation specialists to more efficient access to cross-sectional data, improved data comparability across the consortium. You may imagine that photographs are cross-sections made in one lab with one set of filters are difficult to compare with cross sections of the same artist materials in another lab with a different set of filters, although we call them the same type of either UV or natural light, whatever. We hope to come up with suggestions for this over the course of the IPERION research area. We also had a conference where we were studying European Visual Arts 1800 to 1850, hosted by CATS in Copenhagen and this was a technical art history conference because we tried to bridge conservation science to the hardcore humanities art historians and they are not, some art historians fall asleep when they see cross section number three and scientists may do the same when they see I don't know how many images of something that they, but we want to bridge this and make questions and maybe try to see if what we call technical art history is actually not just art history as it was in the past with an added scientific value of the analytical data that science can produce for the understanding of cultural heritage objects in general. So we're studying this over two days and we have participants also from the US in this conference and then we've just had our first doctoral summer school, advanced characterization of techniques, diagnostic tools, evaluation of methods in heritage science. It took place in Madrid and was organized by the IPERION in Spain. This doctoral summer school will provide advanced lectures on analytical and diagnostic tools for students and the lectures were including up to date development in conservation materials and recent advances of all the aspects you would need to be put in front of in order to go out and work in our sector and there were 30 students attending this summer school, also from 14 different countries within the European community. Forthcoming meetings Intangibility Matters is an international conference that the LNEC in Lisbon is organizing in May '17, two days, which will look at the immaterial sides of tangible cultural heritage and discuss all sorts of aspects related to the values and reflections, etc. Keep an eye out for the announcements for this conference, I bet it's going to be very interesting for those working with intangible matters. There will also be a joint project initiative, so next conference taking place two days after in Beja in June, also working in that same direction and trying to investigate objects of that nature. The ion bean photon workshop was so popular that the members wanted to have another one so another one also is popping up in '17 in June. It will be taking place in Amsterdam and organized by the ICN in collaboration with NICAS and other partners so keep an eye out for that for those of you who are interested in these kind of workshops. ^M00:50:07 And then finally, there will be an international conference called Tempera between 1850 and 1950, a painting technique at the dawn of modernity which will be held at the Doerner Institute in Munich and it has to do with in recent years a new and profound attempt was made to explore the complex research field of tempera painting in the 19th and 20th century which has until now only been very briefly discussed in literature. We want to organize here a two day program which also will look at the sources of the studio practice, materiality and of course the art historical aspects of why is tempera painting having a revival at that particular moment and how can that assist us in understanding you could say, the bigger picture of the moment, the interaction of technology and aesthetics in painting of that particular period. There will soon here in December be a call for contributions to this conference so keep an eye out for this too. Well, drawing into other work packages then the one that CATS is particularly in charge of is a work package her on establishing cross disciplinary best practices and protocols. Susanna Bracci had been making a survey and had asked colleagues primarily in the European community to reflect on best practices within analysis and treatment of a variety of objects and materials that we encounter in our cultural heritage at [inaudible] and this report will be coming out pretty soon and will be the basis for further research within IPERION such as the foresight studies and best practices and protocols but mainly the foresight studies and as I'm mentioning here, which is aiming at exploring the idea within IPERION not to replicate what's already been done elsewhere in the development heritage science strategies but to consider the question from the point of view of developing strategies that support the research infrastructures examining what instruments and tools might be needed to address the research priorities being identified by the group and where and how these are needed to fill the gaps. This work is also ongoing and we have research results coming out as they emerge. There will also be a course planned in November '17 in London and combined with the second user meeting taking advantage of the presence of an audience of stakeholders in London. The date has been chosen to immediately precede another planned IPERION workshop activity, a colloquium on 3D imaging to be held at the British Museum on the 10th of November, 2017 so you're well ahead and can start saving up for the travels and we hope that you'll draw a lot of participants from also this country. Leading up to the speakers of tomorrow also, we have a work packet or task in the work packet networking and external cooperation on heritage digital data management exploitation use and reuse. It's a very long title for this and it is Erik Buelinckx from KIK-IRPA in Brussels who is coordinating this and I should say it's earlier, the project is beginning to form itself now and in the beginning of '17, a first survey will be carried out within this network to identify and gather all relevant information regarding the task. The main point of interest will be to define a broader network also outside IPERION and to see how the questions will be geared there to involve DARIAH-ERIC and other stakeholders. Sharing data is something that some fields in the humanities are not very good at I daresay. Others are very good at them. I believe that conservation science and conservators are sharing quite a lot however, there are still elements within research data that are not being shared. Let me just mention one, dendrochronological data. That is kept very strict to the people who do this. Maybe we should discuss how that could change for the benefit of the entire field and the cultural heritage objects, where you can combine of course, knowledge about climate, heritage objects, either electronics, paintings, sculptures, archaeological wood and everything comes together there and can be of huge importance for the field. So having said all this and having showed you two slides very quickly here that you haven't got time to read, I think I will simply just say thank you and keep up for the slides you will get, and I hope that many of you will join the network activities that we organized within IPERION. Thank you very much. ^M00:55:47 [ Applause ] ^M00:55:56 >> Thank you Jorgen and thank you actually for all three speakers so far for being very punctual and in fact a little bit early. We're catching some time up so no pressure Georgios. You have to no let us down. Our final speaker, Georgios Karagiannis. He's behind me right, yes, the Scientific Internal Head from the Diagnosis Centre of the Ormylia Foundation in northern Greece and he'll be talking about the knowledge and innovation technology transfer research going on in IPERION CH. ^M00:56:24 ^M00:56:38 >> Thank you very much for being here. I'm going to talk about knowledge innovation and technology transfer in IPERION project, which is a rather difficult lecture actually. Since our cultural heritage is our common memory and knowledge as human beings, one of the main concerns should be the cultivation of the current and next generations. We do believe that and so UNESCO guidelines and documents are indeed fostering consciousness of our culture through the cultivation of the current and the next generations. All this is in accordance with UNESCO. Also, the technological development and the living data of the technological development so our endeavor should also focus the cultivaion of the next generation towards the cultivated use of technology. I would say that technology and culture are things that go together but technology, as you know, is a Greek word related to the techni which is art and which is also the craft creation actually and the term of logos which is actually our wisdom finally, and finally our spiritual heritage. IPERION project is not far away from this main idea and this main target I would say, because we are using IPERION various different kind of radiations and state of the art prototypes in order actually to make endoscopy of an object and search the deepest information of these and the deepest hidden beauty of the art objects which is actually providing us the possibility to create new cultural richness. This is very important because the self-consciousness that we are achieving using the results of the analysis is more or less an exercise about our self-consciousness, according to Socrates, which means [inaudible] and this is a great power actually in order to create a new heritage and a new art. Well, within this vision I would say that now as you have seen in the morning and from other presenters, we have accumulated knowledge within this series of projects which actually LabsTech was initiated in some initial discussion of [inaudible] based on a previous existing network. Again, something started again from Greece here and of course this accumulated knowledge is enriched using these access actions and by acces actions we are gaining advanced knowledge because we are not providing our analysis only, but we are gaining much knowledge from the users. Michel and Antonio talked about these actions before. I would say that the knowledge and the innovation that we are gaining within these projects and actually in IPERION project is mainly based on transnational access and the joint research activities that are main pillars of the project. I would say that now, Professor Antonio Sgamellotti we are in the position to say that we have a new heritage. ^M01:00:04 It's not only the heritage of the data that we have acquired from cultural heritage objects but it's also the creators of the technology platform that we have and this technological platform provides us the possibility o have this osmosis between the communities of the technology provides, the chemistry, physics, and engineers with art historians and the conservators and this is now made practice so I would name that this is a blessing and finally a blossom of a new science. This is my dimension about heritage science and of course the incarnation of innovation in IPERION project is mainly based on the diagnostic instruments which we are going to talk tomorrow about, diagnostic methods, and the data that we are producing. These are the three actions that you have been presented before. So what are we offering? We are in the position to make analysis of various kinds of objects, paintings, byzantine icons, metallic objects or various metallic materials, ceramics, wall paintings, glass objects and using these techniques like optical tomography, non-radiating imaging, spectroscopic mapping imaging or [inaudible], acoustic microscopy new techniques, nuclear magnetic resonance, [inaudible] imaging, we are providing to the end user in the community two dimensional mapping images of the materials or [inaudible] and finally combining them with tomographic information we are edging to having by the coupling points of the analytical points and the imaging methods, high resolution and fidelity 3D tomographic information with all the qualitative information embedded on them. So this finally provides us the possibility to support the vivid navigation of the adventure of the art objects in time and in space so we can navigate in the beauty of these objects while the time passes in the space that they were found. I had a mind to give some paradigms which will be presented better tomorrow in my presentation, just to be coherent with the previous speakers, in order to have a more vivid information about the kind of information that we received. Sorry, we can go here next. Of course, this is, I took from our colleague Hilda some [inaudible] on some cases. The kind of [inaudible] that we have is by infrared refractor for instance, the art drawings beyond the visible so we have information about what happens in the under layers of the object. And of course, in this case for instance we can reveal foils on the gold leave in specific areas of the art objects. And then, using Tera-Hertz for instance imaging we have better penetration than the infrared imaging, revealing the hidden gold in specific art objects. Mapping images as Antonio had presented before, we have [inaudible] with the materials on it as well as using synchrotron based x-ray methods, we have evidence of the degradation on the material on the surfaces as in the other layers and then we have mapping images and also hyperspectral imaging we can observe better the distribution of the [inaudible] of the object. And finally, tomography is [inaudible] here with which we can navigate the depth of the information the object revealing the pathology of the application with various varnishes in the pigments in depth. Since philosophy means Praxis, in work package 11 of IPERION project, we are trying finally to transfer this innovation and recommendation about art objects to the industry and mainly to small medium enterprises and vice versa, I'm not sure. The osmosis between research community and industry or mainly SMEs will be stressed targeting to the creation of novel products and spin off companies. These guidelines of European Commission [inaudible] and I do believe the market needs such kinds of actions but this action is multidirectional interaction, I would say because this processes that are needed to be done in order to reach such a target are unidirectional and are characterized by the interactions in order to try to match the supply with the demand so we have to see what is a demand and what is a market behind this and in this case there are many factors actually. Mainly, the researchers/us which have to place their ideas in order to chase for new funding and then the other side we also have the institutions where they have to adapt themselves to new global European and national research policies and what about the social impact in assessment? We have to have a turnover to the society about the findings that we were gaining and give this knowledge to the society back and then the companies are the other actors in private sector which need, indeed in the planet the companies need new ideas and new opportunities in order to overcome recession. And finally, the government, the decision makers who want to assess their investment in order to account for their policies and here we have to fight towards the governments in order to take care of cultural heritage. And the various actors of course imply various needs, which much be coordinated an then main channels for research results transfer up to now have been the traditional patents databases usually in the patent offices Of course, these kinds of channels in order to disseminate your knowledge, the patents are restricted and they are not so well accessible via the web technologies. Therefore, we thought that new instruments are needed in order to transmit the knowledge and social media is a kind of tool in order to do this work. Because of their features, scholarly community has increasingly employed social medial in order to communicate their results in a better and faster way and furthermore studies about new metrics based on social media are being developed. What are the existing tools? The existing tools of social media are like LinkedIn or Academia, ResearchGate, okay Facebook, I don't believe that but in any case this is also social media. This situation is so the power of social media is constantly increasing, indeed it is increasing and the new generations are using them. For this reason, we thought that the ad hoc social media focused on innovation and technology transfer could increase the communication between various actors that I presented you before and the whole innovation system. So, in order to maximize the technology transfer within the IPERION project, based on common interests between industry and research area, we are looking forward to win to win collaborations. A new tool, we decided to develop a new tool which is named SpinBook which was developed by IRCrES and finally was adapted in collaboration with the ORMYLIA Foundation for the needs of work packet 11 of the IPERION project. While I'm presenting you first this tool that is placed now into operation and from now on we will start using this. SpinBook considers all types of actors involved in the innovation process from researches to companies, public administration, investors, intermediaries enterprises. These are the stakeholders of this. We expect that SpinBook will be used by various actors. Political decision makers and universities should also use this so as far as one can enter to the system to build a profile identifying himself as a researcher or enterprise or broker, or founder, or public administration. You make a login and you make a profile there. Also, we expect that industrial sector should be able to access the selected hi-tech information in order to assess in a reliable way the economic potential of the range of available skills and to have the chance to acquire it within a short space of time. The industrial sector is there. I can skip this, so then in SpinBook, we have the possibility to have a direct communication among these profiles so SpinBook aims to set up a social room between all the actors for the innovation process giving them a sustainable visibility and also giving a boost to new ideas and projects. We have concrete control of the data and careful validation so when you are filling your profile you are filling some basic information related to the research and to the institution in order to identify them. ^M01:09:59 This can be done in some minutes and then this is a real-time system informed real-time so the various factors among them can start communicating and exchanging ideas but the core objective of SpinBook its powerful search engine inside, with the capability to retrieve information extended to any type of document that is loaded into the system. You can search about what kind of technology you can find with this. And then, this is done by another form and that's the form where the researcher or enterprise can enter and fill what is the expectation or what is the innovation and what is the pattern that had developed. It can also add some multimedia files there like documents, videos, whatever related to the pattern that he has done so we are knowing exactly who does what and where. And then, I would say that the sole prerogative of SpinBook is that it can also provide the summary sheet in which the researchers decided to specify in more detail the applicative potentialities of their results. Such information, for obvious reasons are confidential and have been collected in a special section of SpinBook and appear locked to the consultation. To access the full reading of this tab, users can get in touch directly with the researcher via a private message. In this case, the software foresees that they want [inaudible] gives access to the one that asked for it and then this is accessible to other users and then the collaboration can start the discussion. In conclusion, we need to provide the tools in order to give our technology to the ones that are interested for this and we are provided on the other side this heavy heritage that I have described to you before. The acquisitions of new technologies are of paramount importance for the European SMEs which usually can only invest limited resources in the innovation. Moreover, it's crucial to promote strong interactions between public research and the industry through related figures as investors and intermediaries. Therefore, SpinBook's main result will have to concretize into a real European knowledge community in the field of cultural heritages like a place of meeting and sharing between the main groups involved, as well as a progressive space of aggregation of any stakeholders working in the process of production and utilization of innovation. SpinBook is already published and now you can see the link there and join it, and not we will start filling it with companies and patents mainly starting from the users of the IPERION project and then we will see how it will go, so thank you very much. ^M01:13:11 [ Applause ] ^M01:13:18 ^M01:13:30 >> I'm going to stand here and you can share, there's enough microphones now I think and I think right in saying these microphones get picked up by the camera but not to the audience so it's not a bad room actually for projecting. We have about 10 minutes assigned to questions and hopefully answers. Does anybody want to kick it off with a question for any of our speakers? And if not, I'm going to get us going. >> I have one, sir. >> You have a question? >> Yes. >> Go for it. >> This is technical but I wanted to ask, what are the dimensions of the various layers, if you know? >> Of the various- >> Layers. >> Of the various layers yes, they are about micrometer layers. The layer of embedded nanoparticles is about 200 nanometers in thickness and thanks to the efficiency of the [inaudible] spectrometry, we are able to measure exactly with certainty of course, these different layers. >> Can I just ask some general questions to Michel and to Antonio about the three labs, so MOLAB, [inaudible] and FIXLAB, just can you talk a little bit about the process of how decisions are made about who gets access to which instrumention? Michel, do you want to start off with the FIXLAB? >> My laboratory gives access to the three MOLAB, [inaudible] and FIXLAB and each, to get access to that, you have to fill a proposal and as Antonio has mentioned they are called twice a year and these proposals are evaluated by peer review panels, one for each access and if accepted the applicant will enter in contact with the access provider and they will have the possibility to find a date where the MOLAB can go to the work of art, when the applicant can come to the archives in the different centers or when the applicant can come with his objects, with his artifacts to be analyzed either in Hungary or in France for FIXLAB. >> There is a panel for the examination of the peer review. This is usually three people and nobody from the providers of the service is part of the panel, [inaudible] everything is then [inaudible]. MOLAB is the only one infrastructure, which goes the other way around. The community is paying for the operators, not for the use and that was very difficult. I was on the committee in the beginning and they say but we do not have the forms, we have the forms to pay the users, not the operators and then the second big question was how much does it cost for MOLAB to be a European infrastructure. Because usually, the infrastructure are very, very expensive [inaudible] and hard to convince but they were convinced that [inaudible] was important but the software for the professionals were unique and that made the infrastructure unique. >> It's probably different for each of the three services but do you think the amount of time or funding allocated is about right? Are we getting the right amount of applications to projects being accepted or is it too competitive or is it too easy? How is it sort of working out? >> The applications are helped by an access board. That means if they wish to write a proposal, if they want they can enter in contact with the access board and they will have counsel from the access board in order to reach the exact time. >> There is [inaudible] facilitated proposal but in terms of your questions, I would say that there [inaudible] very few proposals [inaudible]. >> Jorgen, I have a question for you as well. I'm always intrigued with these projects that try to pull together, we call it best practice or whatever it is where you're trying to get different groups who probably have very established ways of working and you're trying to get them all to kind of adopt one methodology. Is it too soon to say in practice the ease of that happening or not? Do you find people open to that seeing a benefit or people kind of dig their heels in and say my way's the best? ^M01:20:08 >> I think you already answered it [laughter]. >> It is difficult to find common grounds in some places and convince each other that that's the way to do it. Sharing is also a difficult issue in this, how much do you share and how well do you do it? Talking about this, the founder of the [inaudible] in the 19th century, when he developed a good yeast he went out in Europe and offered it to all of the other breweries in Europe so we could have a good competition on who could make the best beer based on the same formula and that is a very generous way of doing it and [inaudible] Foundation also expects that any research that comes out of the research that they fund will be publically accessible immediately as it is, so that will set new standards and I think more and more foundations have this request which means that we are obliged to coordinate our actions, to make it interpretable for other parties. >> Jay? >> One of the parts of IPERION is looking [inaudible] how different people photograph cross sections and so a number of people photograph the same cross section and so a number of institutions have changed their photographic procedure to [inaudible] everyone else did it so when people can see a clear benefit and improvement in process, I think people are willing to change. It's only when perhaps there isn't a clear indication for why [inaudible] that you will get [inaudible]. >> Sure and I've been remind for anyone speaking down here, if you're going to say anything a bit longer than a few words come up here because we have to have it on camera but if I can paraphrase very, very quickly, in the grounds project that was presented very quickly and will come up later, no doubt about it, Joe Padfield found that when there's a real need for photographing in a different way to compare grounds it actually happened quite quickly. You also have to adopt one method don't you so maybe this is a political discussion, I'm not sure, I'm just intrigued at how it actually works in practice. >> It depends on [inaudible]. >> Was there another hand up here? >> I'm very curious too because the SpinBook is something like Facebook- ^M01:22:41 [ Inaudible Comments ] ^M01:22:46 >> I'll repeat it, SpinBook is like Facebook. >> I'm very curious, I forgot to ask this question, how do we control that we don't have fake profiles on SpinBook because I [inaudible] for example and [inaudible] for the rest of my life and I will improve this dream through a fake company and put the company on SpinBook. It is a nonsense question I understand but I mean, it has been filled with something which is real, which is connected to the reality. How can we be sure that what is inserted is real? >> Let me just repeat the question for the camera. The very brief version of the question was how do we prevent fake identities appearing on SpinBook whether it's a company or another sort of profile? >> In the entrance for there are four people that will be a committee in order to assess what is getting into the system so up to there, we cannot do any more. We can [inaudible] I suppose sometimes if something is, now we have all the capabilities, when we have an email or a contact point inserted by Googling it several times you can have an idea if something is fake or something important. There will be this committee in order to make this check initially and then we will decide if we are going to leave the profile or communicate with this guy. >> Dou you want to come up Jay if it's going to be a bit long because this is a bit strange. They're all going to hear the question and I'm going to have to repeat it. I think we'll make this the last question. Come up, yeah. >> Hello, I was just going to say that people can apply for more than one access at the same time and sometimes if people are putting together a project which makes use of more than one access that can be quite beneficial and the other thing to say is that members of IPERION can't apply for these accesses so it's all for people outside of the project so it's not like we can all apply for our own access and it's all really great. It's actually for other people so the purpose of these sorts of presentations are trying to get other people to make applications to IPERION because we can't apply for our own accesses. >> But all within Europe right Jay? At the moment? >> As far as I understand yes. >> [Inaudible] you cannot apply from the [inaudible] which is in your country. For instance, in Italy you cannot apply for the Italian MOLAB because they assess [inaudible]. >> Great well no more hands up. We're going to take a quick break, 15 minutes is good? I want to say a few things but first please thank our fantastic panel for this. ^M01:26:09 ^M01:26:11 >> My name is Barbara Berrie. I'm head of the Scientific Research Department and I'm standing in for [inaudible]. Unfortunately, Emiliano [assumed spelling] has a family health emergency and our thoughts are with him at this time. I know he would have loved to have been here with us and I also know that I won't come even close to being able to give you as much information as he has at his fingertips but I have a great panel here, which will help me work on all of this. But before we get to the panel, I just want to talk a little bit about some of Emiliano's work. He is one of those rare people who works not only interdisciplinarily but also truly multidisciplinary. He's trained as a medievalist and he has worked to build a platform for the digital infrastructure of research, digital research in humanities and it's called CENDARI and that stands for, and I have it written down somewhere pardon me, maybe somebody can find which piece of paper did I wrote this on, it's the Collaborative European Digital Archive Infrastructure and in fact, there are some pages in there that have "technical documentation" and that is really filled with information and the kinds of words that I can't get my head around like light F and pineapple, RDF converters, nerd (that one I do know) and [inaudible]. All of these kinds of words that describe what you need to know in order to build this kind of infrastructure and I can't really get there but I think that web page, that documentation shows it very well. CENDARI is like DARIA, which you've heard about and [inaudible], and Parthenon and the new DIGILAB. These are all pan European initiatives that are being developed as part of the infrastructure to promote digital research in humanities but today, I have a great panel that's going to talk about some of the nitty gritty of doing that, really talking about where the rubber meets the road on this and about what kinds of content we're trying to prepare to be loaded into these kinds of infrastructures and some of the challenges of not only the foundation for the infrastructure but also the layers on top that we will be interfacing with. Since everybody's bios are in the program I'm not going to read those and also because we're going to change the format up a little bit here. I'm going to ask all the panelists to speak for just five minutes so we'll go through everybody's project and perceptions and then I'll come back with specific questions that are tying up some of the common threads in the challenges that each person is describing in their effort and their endeavor, and then I'll open up the floor to you. As you heard that there is no microphone for you except these ones so if you have a question or a comment to make, there are plenty of seats up in the front row so as you're thinking of your questions if you're going to want to ask some, please come sit in the front row and you can share the microphones with us. ^M01:30:00 My panel starts, I'll introduce everybody it's Merv Richard who is Chief of Conservation at the National Gallery of Art, he's my boss [laughter]. Next to him is Joe Padfield from National Galley of London, Cecilia Frosinini who is Vice Director of the Opificio delle Pietre Dure in Florence, Fenella France who is here at the Library of Congress and Michele Derrick, who is at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston. You'll notice that we're mostly museum based people, something that was noted to and eluded to this morning, that a lot of what goes on in cultural heritage is happening in museums in America but with that, I think I'll start at the far end and ask Merv to tell us about his forays into digital heritage research. >> If you can't hear me then raise your hand, I'll try to speak loudly. Like most of you in this room, I actually sit here with multiple hats on. The National Gallery actually has a very long history of doing collaborative projects, both scientific research as well as in conservation with institutions around the world and we have fostered that. Now, there's a caveat here. On the flip side, there's a long tradition particularly in America but maybe equally in Europe of yes, you collaborate with your collaborators and you share information but there's a long history of conservators not wanting to share information with the much larger community for a variety of reasons. That's not why we're here today, we're beyond that now thankfully and for the purpose of collaboration, many of us have long felt the need to share data much more extensively than is possible through just these mutual collaborations. As a result, the National Gallery, in partnership with other museums including some of you in this room, has embarked with support of the Mellon Foundation and Alison is here today, I'm sure you all know Alison or I hope so but anyway, we have been working for the last seven years on something called Conservation Space, which some of you are familiar with and Conservation Space is directed towards the management and preservation of the documents that we generate in the course of conservation as well as in conservation science and the purpose of it is to get away from filing cabinets filled with pieces of paper that typically require someone's memory to remember oh yes, we did such and such with such and such 10 years ago and to get into a situation where the information is much more readily accessible and by accessible that can be to your local conservation community, that can be to the entire public if one wishes. So with Conservation Space, we looked for the development of a digital took that would number one, facilitate the day to day working practices of conservators because if there's anything that I've figured out over the years, if you don't create something that people actually want or need to use then the likelihood of them actually using it is somewhat reduced and with Conservation Space, the objective was to find a way of creating, storing, searching, as well as sharing all of the records that we are producing and when I say records this is both in the form of written documents as well as images. And so, I'm happy to say that Conservation Space is live, I mean it's real now, it's not just a concept. We've put it into production at the National Gallery of Art at the moment and we are sort of doing a slow, rolled out use of the software at the moment. It is web based which means that it lives in the cloud. The information on a document by document level can be made accessible to user groups that you define so in other words, you can restrict it solely to yourself, you can restrict it to people collaborating on a project, the people who collaborate can be in the National Gallery or anywhere in the world as long as they have user access and if you want to share it with the whole world on a document by document basis then you can do that as well very easily. The scientific department is actually one of the most rapid, I think, adopters of starting to incorporate the scientific data into the system and when I say scientific data, that means that it's in the form of data tables and in the form of things like images of graphs. We are not trying to address proprietary software that instruments develop. This is where we are and we feel that this is a huge stride forward in terms of collaboration, which is what this meeting's all about and look forward to sort of future interactions with all of you. >> Thanks Merv. >> Good afternoon, I'm from the UK, just one of the non-American people [laughter], there's two people from the EU. I trained originally as a chemist and then I trained as a paintings conservator and then I've spent the last 16 years working with computers. A lot of people working in cultural heritage work with computers. It's quite a normal thing where that's just answering emails or whether that's writing reports or typing up questions or looking at pictures and a lot of the work that we're trying to do at the moment is to see how we can capture that effort that's already put in and make more of it. So as Merv said, Conservation Space is looking at trying to simplify the administrative structure that already exists when you type in word documents but instead of saving them in once place on your computer, you save them in a place that other people can see them and managers can organize them. It's a question of if we come up with a beautiful computing system that allows you to do all of the things you'd like to do but all of the work to do that is on top of all of the work you already have to do, it doesn't matter how good the system is, no one is going to use it they just don't have time. So, in IPERION I'm responsible for work package eight, which is looking at developments in digital documentation. The budget is good. It's not huge so we're not looking to build systems but what we're looking to do is to test systems and as soon as Merv releases Conservation Space we're going to have a play with it but it's looking to test ideas of how people actually do things so we're looking at small tools that are being developed to help speed up individual little jobs. Now, as I said, people use computers all the time anyway but the thing is, there are large numbers of IT professionals looking for projects in universities to do and then there's a lot of cultural heritage scientists struggling to answer questions because of the limitations of the software they have. >> I'm not sure I understand. ^M01:37:44 [ Laughter ] ^M01:37:45 >> How appropriate, go Siri! You need to speak more clearly Joe. >> It's the accent. >> Make the tool more simple. >> I lost my train of thought now so the question about is one of the first tasks in work package eight is making practical solutions so actual things that people can use, actual entities. You mentioned a couple of those terms that are on the CENDARI sort of website you didn't like, like RDF and the others and there's a lot of informatics that can be hidden underneath pieces of software to allow people to do more so there's an awful lot of very clever technology sitting underneath Conservation Space that as a user you'd never have to see it and care about, but then a lot more is possible with the information underneath. What we're looking to do is in the first task is to provide tactical solutions to actually show things working and to show people how they could do them themselves. The second part of the work package eight in IPERION is to look at the descriptions, how do we describe this information, how do we be connected together so most of you will be able to explain to me what it is you do and why you do it and what it is. If you then had to explain it to a computer in a way that the computer could then connect to other systems, it becomes very difficult because you have to be very, very specific and consistent so that's what the second task is looking at. The third task is looking at the notion of data formats, it's that as we store more and more of this information together, how can we make sure that people will be able to reuse it tomorrow and in 10 years' time and in 20 years' time so as people have said, we're not looking to replicate the very quality pieces of software that developed with instruments that are purchased but to be able to look at that data and to be able to reuse the data later once these instruments no longer work and once the software is no longer available is becoming important as we're generating huge amounts of data in some of these new techniques that are becoming available so that's the third task. And then the final task within work package eight is actually to produce resources of information that people could use and move forward so it's been discussed already one of the first ones you're looking at a grounds database so we're going to try and look at building a database of ground samples and explain how they all connect together, how they relate to the different artists and different institutions where the information is stored but we're also going to try and build that on a fairly generic model so that that same database structure can be used for other resources of information. ^M01:40:17 So, how it can be used for quantitative analysis of [inaudible] is going to be another one that's going to be looked at but we are looking at practical solutions to doing these things so Conservation Space, and I won't go into actual numbers, had a much bigger budget than we have within the particular work package we're dealing with. There was another very interesting project which is hopefully just about to be released called Research Space, which is going to be allowed to do different jobs, to do with complex cultural heritage information and again, we're looking to make use of these and use them and test them within IPERION rather than try and write them again because a lot of people are working on similar projects and ideally through communication it would be great to make sure that we can each use each other's work to move forward rather than continuing replicating the stuff that goes forward so there are lots of resources out there, people are working on them, there's lots of really good work being done and we're trying to improve the communications and provide real worked examples so that Siri can understand what it is [laughter] we're actually doing and it's often a lot of these complex projects are done, the project comes to an end, there's a very shiny product at the end of it, everyone really likes it and then a new project stars up and they go well, we're not going to use that because we don't know how it works and well, we're not sure we can do it so they start again and build it again. If we can make sure that these tools are being developed are building blocks, we can move forward and the golden rule is make sure you can get your data out, actually it doesn't really matter what the software is as long as you can get your data in and you can get your data out, you can move on to whatever's going to happen next so these are the things we're looking at within work package eight for the IPERION project. >> Thanks Joe, Cecilia maybe you'll talk about some of these issues from a slightly different perspective. >> Yes, always a different perspective because I feel at a certain point always out of context because I [inaudible] mainly working with the scientist or a conservator and so sometimes I feel like a child of a lesser God because it's very difficult that people trust me, people from the scientific point of view. It's very difficult to make me reliable from their point of view and also when I come back to my original field, to my original background and discuss with traditional academic art historians, I am always the child of a lesser God because of course, I mix my origin and great tradition, God given experience and scholarship for very trivial kind of studies so this is very interesting from some point of view. It's a continuous challenge but this is also the challenge of the great change that Italy experienced especially in the field of conservation because for many, many decades in the last century especially, the art historians were not really involved in conservation but some of them, very few of them and generally speaking they were all involved in the research regarding the museum, and the exhibition, and so on. And also, there was a very low level consideration for the conservation field. Conservators were considered more like the craftsmanship of art. They were not considered a high level position and it lasted for a long time so I think that in some ways, this idea of art separated from science affected the development of also the material art history which is very, very behind in Italy. In our experience at the Opificio delle Pietro Dure, we have this pioneeristic position because we have always thought to be a sort of Italian branch of the [inaudible] and also because one of our founding fathers [inaudible] was very close to all the people of the [inaudible] who founded the school of the [inaudible] tradition but we were very distant from the rest of the world. I think that in time and of course these last decades, these gaps have been filled and are already filled and now we share our expertise and we participate to all the major projects. For example, in the case of IPERION, I think it is very important choice that Opificio made to appoint three different people as representatives in the frame of the different task leaders of IPERION so we have a scientist, a conservator and an art historian, which is a sort of coronation of all the story that I have tried to send up during this short work. I think that I have benefitted a lot as an art historian from this continuous experience and this continuous sharing with the scientists. Most of the modern accomplishments of art history cannot be so grounded, so based on the truth in my opinion and especially what I like very much is the fact that now it can deny many of the urban legends that were at the basis of many constructions of the academic art historians so I think that this has been my personal experience but also a general change in Italy for the professional of art history. >> Fenella, tell us about your initiatives here. >> So I wanted to, can you hear me okay at the back? So, I wanted to start by sort of going back to Professor [inaudible] talking about stem to steam this morning because we're hearing this theme come through and I really adhere very strongly to the fact that we need to integrate the humanities and the scientific data together because they're not separate, they actually rely on each other and then also in terms of GLAM, everyone keeps talking about museums and I kind of want to put my finger up and say no, I'm a library but we do science here too so we have galleries, libraries, archives and museums, historic houses, all of these institutions I think we need to think a little bit more broadly in terms of our concept because the academic institutions, many of them also have museums and libraries and I very much want to pick up on Luca's [phonetic] point this morning where he talked about data not just being the captured document but the physical collection and I'll come back to that at the end, but we have many libraries and museums who have physical collections, reference collections that are being shared. And so, I think that comes back to what is data, both physical and digital components of the same and as part of that too, what are archives and repositories because the repositories are reference collections that when people retire are getting thrown out and we all just cringe in horror when that happens, really are critical parts of our institutions that we need to be preserving. There's many institutions with lots of different initiatives and I very much like what Joe was saying that we want to be interoperable and we really want to build upon each other's initiatives so if I do a small piece that actually is useful for something else, I'd really rather like my system to be agnostic and actually interact with everyone else's. And so we've talked, we've heard about Conservation Space, Research Space, these [inaudible] which I'll talk about in a moment but also a little bit broader so I don't know how many of you know about [inaudible], which is a partnership between the Association of Research Libraries and the Institute for Museum of Library Studies and the Sloane Foundation for the Center for Open Science so I think these are initiatives we also need to be engaging with and not reinventing when they're already looking at ways of sharing that data and trying to make that open. Delighted to have Cliff Lynch[assumed spelling] here from the Coalition for Networked Information and that's something also we need to really look at what other institutions we should be engaging with as well because that allows us to use and reuse our data more effectively, because if we all have data sets and as we've heard, they've been used for one purpose, we often don't know what a different audience might want to use them for and I think that's something we really need to push on a lot more, to look at the other audiences that might be interested in what we're doing. ^M01:50:09 In terms of the collaboration for sharing data and Joe and I will talk more about this tomorrow but you know part of it really comes down to the institutional policy and at what level management supports that sharing and what level of sharing that is. There may be different models for really looking at what type of data and how you can share that level of data. I just wanted to finish up with talking about CLASSD, another acronym, the Center for Library Analytical Scientific Samples. Here at the library we both have physical reference materials of all of the types of materials that we have in our collections and have been linking that to a web accessible database of all of the data that links back to that original object or sample. Part of that has been trying to drive ourselves crazy by extracting metadata from proprietary instruments and encouraging the manufacturer's that we really don't want to steal the software, we just want to extract the data so really looking at what are those open, sustainable, file formats that we can do that we can extract that from, what other high level metadata we need for people to be able to share and actually engage with that database more effectively and then pulling that out of that nonproprietary format. It came up this afternoon about the verification and validation of the accuracy of the data so part of this is actually insuring that there are experts who are expert in a certain type of data analysis, I told Michele that she is going to be put on here, that would actually be verifying the accuracy of that data to make sure before it's put out there, that that has been validated and then in terms of assuring that we don't have fake institutions created that there would be member partners who would engage and have to be part of their [inaudible] agreement and then any other researchers from that institution would have the expirable account that would go through the institution. One thing I will talk about a lot more tomorrow is this sharing of reference collections and I know a lot of us have talked about the fact that we can't all have all of the same types of materials but it's been wonderful working with Michele because we've actually been capturing data on some of our [inaudible] and pushing that into the CAMEO collection so I think really a more coherent approach which we're all advocating for and seeing how much we can use of each other's initiatives to really get that global perspective as Luca's been pushing and to move us all forward to next steps. >> Michele, maybe you just had the introduction on CAMEO there. Maybe you can talk about that and your development of an online digital resource. >> Okay thank you. I'm going to talk about something a little different because this is CAMEO, the Conservation and Art Materials Encyclopedia Online, that has been online for over 16 years so, and because I've worked on it for about 20 years, I've got to brag. We actually made the cover page for Chemistry International, September 2016. ^M01:53:17 [ Applause ] ^M01:53:21 >> We have, in the month of November we had 11,200 users, that's independent IP addresses. We have about 60 editors, 23 of which are in Europe and CAMEO now resides on media wiki software so I think what I'm supposed to talk about though is how did we get to this point? How did it actually develop? The main thing, I thought I was talking loud okay, the main thing I think is that we were a single institution that was focused on a single subject. Now, our subject is fairly broad, materials used in art or used in conservation or materials that can affect art so that can be pigments, coatings, adhesives, formaldehyde, insects, but we had a topic and we had an institution. We had several people that were allowed to work on it and we received generous grants so we received an initial grant from the National Center for Preservation Technology and Training, we received one from the Institute of Museum and Library Surfaces, IMLS, we received one from the Mellon Foundation and one from the Crest Foundation. Each of these grants in general helped us migrate the data from an older platform onto a new platform but it also allowed us to do some data addition and alteration and changes. We went from File Maker, to Microsoft Access to SQL, to a proprietary software that we were stuck in for about 10 years and had trouble getting our data out of and now we're on media wiki and let's see, one of the most important things that happened to CAMEO was our collaboration with Europe and this was started by the dedication of Jean-Louis Boutain [assumed spelling], who contacted me in 2005, and set up a working group with [inaudible] and Jean-Louis Boutain pushed people. Because of the goal of transnational access, we thought one of the most important things was to add foreign language synonyms to the English language records so that those could be searched on so that anyone could get access to the records and after [inaudible] ended, then we became a working group in CHARISMA and that gets us to where we are now. I did some statistics at the beginning of CHARISMA. We had 48 percent of the users were outside the US and now as of November 2016, 63 percent of the users are outside of the US and in November of 2016, we were used in 139 countries so I very much have enjoyed working on this. >> Well Michele, that's great so this is an example of if you build it, they will come but that has been one of the questions that's been raised by people funding and people working on developing infrastructures for digital research and so your 11,000 users are from all over. Do you know if they're using it for high school papers, for technical art history, for painting? >> I have no idea. One of the things about CAMEO is that when it started, there wasn't much competition out there however, now there are lots of data bases that are very specific for painting materials, for adhesives, for stones, etc so one of the things we're doing is linking to those different databases and I check the people that are linking to CAMEO and one of the museums is the Metropolitan Museum. They have their wonderful art historical database that's phenomenal and they actually link to CAMEO for specific informations on the materials that are used in the works of art. >> Maybe Joe, I can just ask you a question about the IPERION initiatives. Have you in your work package said who your audience should be? >> Yes and no. Because that particular work package one of the tasks is looking at building resources, most of the work is actually building process, how do you actually do jobs? The audience of the actual resources at the end are primarily aiming towards cultural heritage scientists so people that actually wanted to research rather than people just having to explore it for fun. The intention is that the resources will be open to the wider public but they're not being written in such a way to engage with, it's simply a different level of resource that would be required to actually produce that. >> Merv, Conservation Space on the other hand is written for a specific audience in its concept. >> Right in terms of concept I mean, Conservation Space is being developed to solve a problem in institutions which is to facilitate the actual work processes or workflow of practicing conservators and conservation scientists. Now, when I say that, in essence though what we're developing is a document management system that is intended for museums and libraries and in fact, some of the biggest users may end up being conservators in libraries. From that standpoint it is solving a specific problem but then when I say that we already have curators at the National Gallery who are interested, oh can I use that as a research tool and the answer is yes. ^M02:00:00 So, it actually has expandability and one thing to emphasize here for those of you who are familiar with semantic approaches to database development, I mean, Conservation Space is built on top of a significant Open Source platform at the bottom-most layers, something called Alfresco [assumed spelling], for the techies in the room and then there's a platform on top of that, that the company we're working with [inaudible] developed and it's a semantic database and the advantage of the semantic approach is that the ability to now map to and interact with other databases is expanded in our view and so you can link to many other databases. >> You know, thinking of linking makes me think about librarians and archivists and finding resources so I'm really glad that we have Fenella here but I think one thing that these objects that are tools proliferate our ability to discover them is going to be challenged. But one of the ways that this can be helped is by the linking and I'm interested in hearing how much linking is going on but Fenella, perhaps I could ask you do we need to have standards if we're going to be linking among databases? Or are there ways to get around that or should we think about that now? >> So it's come up a few times today that, you know, will people do what you want them to do and I think the challenge is that whenever I, I started this initiative about nine years ago and I asked all my colleagues at the time what do you want to see in this database? And basically they said, put something up there because we don't really know until we see something so that wasn't really particularly helpful but I think you really need to start from a standard and then what we have done is try to standardize the approach of the open access, the standardized file formats, extracted metadata, engaging people who are expert in different instrument, but also then trying to make sure that the structure is robust enough to add in addition fields when people suddenly say wait a minute, there's another way of describing this that we can now do, we have a new instrument, can we add that in? So part of it is I really do think we really do need to try to standardize because otherwise one of the challenges we all have is that being such a multidisciplinary field when one person says data someone else hears something different and I think we've all had that discussion where we're using exactly the same words and at the end of the discussion, five people have gone in 12 different directions so one of the challenges is how much we can have some sort of shared terminology while still recognizing that there are nuances in there. But yes, in order to share we do need to do that, but the data needs to be in a format that is usable to that user. So for example, I may be using something in a completely different way to Joe or Michele, but as long as that data is in a structure that they can extract and reuse then I think that's the critical component. >> So along those lines Cecilia, the kind of information that you would want to pull from a digital repository or asset? X-radiographs, cross-sections? >> Yes, everything [laughter]. >> She doesn't want too much, but some of these files are going to be huge right? >> Yeah. >> And how do you guide an art historian to looking at them on a digital database? >> Here comes the problem of the location especially in the university I think. We are struggling but I think that probably [inaudible] the key person tomorrow to explain better this problem in the modern university regarding the conservation scientist, their key role as a sort of bridge between the traditional art historian, the traditional scientist. From my point of view, I think that we need to have a very important, at this point, it is very important to have a generation of teachers that try to train these new kind of figures and this is very important. For example, in Florence, the University of Florence has a school of specialization for art historians which is really a very formal, very academic but they have selected some specific courses, one is called scientific diagnostic for art historians, which is very nice. It's a sort of [inaudible] you could say so you know what [inaudible] was, it was trying to teach to the son of the King of France whose formal title was the [inaudible] of course and try to explain that in an easier way and the very basic of all the subjects for the cultures so I think this idea that comes in our university to have for example diagnostics for art historian is something interesting because you are not aimed to explain them all the principles of chemistry, or physics or whatever but to try to teach them which are the questions and which are the more probable investigations that can give some answers to these questions. So I think that this is a good idea and this is also probably the idea that we could keep in mind when trying to build this linking between all the different databases so you need different users. >> I think we might need new librarians too, to help the art historian going to the library to discover these tremendous assets because so far as I can tell, some of these are available already, you just have to know where to look. But in terms of training, I wasn't actually thinking of getting the conversation on to training quite yet but if we can just stay on that for a moment, Merv and Joe you both trained as conservators so you had to have some science and I think both of you actually came with science undergraduates rather than art history as undergraduates and then picking up science as a conservator, but if you can cast your minds back, how difficult was it to have one class with some people with a science background and some people with none to have the same class? How do we need to solve this problem? Who can be the trainers for the art historians? >> I remember people breaking out into tears trying to explain certain aspects of science. I think the difficulty with this type of training is that you don't necessarily want to turn an art historian into a chemist or an IT professional. You want to give the art historian enough understanding to know the questions they should be asking or to know who they should be asking the questions of. I think for university students, we need to tell them you're an art historian, you need to go to a chemistry class, insuring that they understand the purpose of the chemistry class is to allow them to ask questions rather than for them to become a chemist is quite important. Having a clear understanding of what people are trying to learn, so I would have thought for an art historian the best way to get information together on a particular artist would be to get every single object ever created by that artist into one room to gather together all of the historical examinations that have been done of all of those objects into the one room, and then all of the specialists who did all of that work into the one room, all at your beck and call and with a few people to interpret the different languages that were done. Now theoretically, you could come up with a computer model to do that but that's kind of where we're aiming towards and I would say that a big issue here is trust because if we're looking at pulling information from lots of different places, you need to know where it's coming from and that you can trust it. We've got a lot of stuff in the main press at the moment about fake news, which is slightly more severe but people need to know if an examination has been done, where was it done, do you feel that's an okay interpretation because people aren't generally going to be able to understand all of the raw data underneath even if it's available. >> That was the case before it was digital too wouldn't you agree? >> Yes. >> It's just that now with the proliferation of access, we have to be more careful. >> You just have more questions, that's the difficulty. I mean, instead of sort of spending 20 years exploring an archive, you may spend a week exploring four so you're going to be hit by so much more information. ^M02:10:00 Understanding that you can make quick decisions about what you found could be quite important. >> Thanks. Michele, you have CAMEO which started off you said with a rather broad remit but can you talk a little bit about the data landscape and how starting from there might have changed how you decide what you're curating in your archive, your digital archive? >> Sure so, at the point we started CAMEO, we were taking information from the books on our library shelves and putting it into a digital format. Because the books were being submitted to me and I was putting it into the format, I had a standardized structure that I used for every single record. >> So wait, can I just say that goes back to your fidelity issue? These were books Michele that you trusted. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yes and it's documented still in the CAMEO records what data sources were used to generate information in that record and when I found data sources that had discrepant information, it's actually recorded there because I found them and I'm sorry, I lost my train of thought. >> How did it grow? It grew from just taking the traditional kinds of material from books and spread out? >> Right, exactly so the first database for CAMEO was textual only. When we got it into the SQL format then we were allowed to add images so we actually had an image collection specialist that was able to take a lot of micrographs himself, he pulled all the [inaudible] pictures off he could off and added them there, he searched the web for other pictures and put them in with credits and we expanded to that, and then we started putting data in so we have IR data, [inaudible] data, x-ray defraction, x-ray fluorescence, polarized light images, anything we could get for the materials. Some of that came from our conservation records, some from our scientific records, others from other people submitting them. >> And Fenella, along those lines with CLASSD, is that to try and help fidelity of the digital part of the content? How do we also make sure that we're not getting fuzzy spots on the x-radiographs that Cecilia's cohort- >> So it's a combination you know I think of what we've always done with the analog and then the expert and Michele is intimately involved with [inaudible] as well but going from that sort of model where you have an expert who will be responsible for a specific instrumental technique so you know this does not look right and it gets sent back, so the combination of both but also just allowing for more discoverability. I think that everyone's doing so much work and even when I hear about a different initiative, I had three weeks to just even shut myself in a room and look at some of these initiatives but there's so much data out there that we just don't know and we're not linking to and I think that's a critical point that's coming through that there's a lot of data there that's not being shared, it's not being saved, funding stops and it disappears somewhere and that's where I think we need to capture that before we lose all of that historic data. >> Now on that note, I'd like to open up the conversation to all of you and as I said there's a microphone right here, you can come and sit in seats as you're thinking of the questions, or you can shout out and I'll transmit the information into the microphone. >> I can shout, I think I'm loud enough. >> You can stand near the microphone. >> I'm near it. Hi, my question is I guess for the group but particularly for Fenella and Michele, I'm interested in the accessibility of data. We have some systems like the [inaudible] database, which holds infrared and [inaudible] data that is only available by membership. You contribute and then you're able to use and you have to be an institution to use these. I used to work as a private conservator and I did not have access to these databases and I make a point that I try to get my students membership so that they, as they go through their career and they move from place to place will always have access to these kinds of systems. I personally believe that we might curate the data we put up but that we should let people use it freely however they want just as they would use a book. I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that and your experiences. >> Well I can simply say that CAMEO is open to the public. Anyone can access it, it's free of charge, and there never will be a charge. The MFA is committed to keeping it accessible. >> And with CLASSD, that's the same. I talked about the fact that we would start with sort of member partners because we want to engage and encourage other people to put their data in so that was the place to start with that, but it will be a registered user and so there's no cost for that. People are not required but we really wanted to start with partners so that we would get more than add data because there's a lot of much more interesting data out there so to answer your question, the data set of whatever there is will be available and can be combined so for one sample we'll have the [inaudible], all of that linked to the one object or sample. >> Joe? >> I was just going to say that there are lots of sort of databases that are created that for various reasons do need to be protected or closed to a certain extent. I think one of the very important things to do about that is to record why they're closed and if there's a time limit on the closing. I think some of the projects like [inaudible], they were essentially closed to begin with to insure people contributed. I think at a certain point perhaps they could be then made open again because it's reached that critical mass. That's where you put that type of data, that's where you would go for that type of data so if people could access that information then that's great but I think to allow people to start off with a plan and a slightly more closed environment helps people with the engaging with that to being with, but there should be a time limit on it. I mean, once after so many years have gone by why can't other people use it? I think if that type of thing can be captured, that can be really important and often, people end up doing stuff because that's the way we do it so yes, it's closed because it's closed and it's sort of a circular argument. If it's closed because it's closed then why can't we open it? I would agree with you the notion that if information isn't actually of a secret or personal nature then if it can be used then great. >> Maybe you can, and I'll come back to Cecilia, just discuss the structure of Conservation Space allows different levels of permissions. >> Yeah I mean with Conservation Space there are two aspects to this question. I mean, one is from the standpoint of sustainability and since Conservation Space is intended to actually help with work processes then while the software is made available freely, in order to maintain the software into the future there will have to be some kind of membership fee which is associated with just sustaining the software and continuing to develop it. But in terms of them who is made accessible since on a document by document level and with the assignment of user roles, it means that you have the capability of opening up those documents to however broad a group you want so that you're not making a decision from the onset about who can see what. You're deciding that this class of documents the whole world can see it if they wish and so that's where the flexibility in how you approach it can make a difference. >> Part of the structure of the system allows that and Cecilia you want to- >> Yes, I just wanted to point to the fact that in Italy, we have a specific legislation about how this data can be accessible or not because most of the works of art are property of the state, so we are compelled to follow these rules. These rules are very old because usually they were set only considering the photographs, the traditional kind of photographs but they assume that there should be an authorization all the time that you ask for data coming from different archives so now all the database that pertains to research, to scientific investigation and so on are put in the same box like they were photographs because there is no specific legislation about all this kind of analysis. ^M02:20:10 And according to these laws, we need to ask for the authorization of the museum, of the church or whatever, who is the owner of the paintings despite the fact that the investigations are carried out by sometimes other institutions, or universities, or so on so you need a great collection of authorizations sometimes. That makes things really, really difficult so that's the reason most of these database are just for being consulted, being read, being used but you cannot really retrieve your original document. You cannot print an x-ray or whatever without asking for a formal authorization. >> It shows that we still are treating digital information sometimes the way we treated analog information. We haven't actually adjusted our thoughts. I think the permission level that Merv talked about is a way to maybe help institutions deal with that. Fenella, you have some thoughts too? >> Yes, I just wanted to follow on from both the user role and the access because one thing we put into place was the fact that while we have public domain so we have to make everything accessible but partners may not want to put all of their collections out there and so each partner would have control of their collection to say okay, this came from a specific donor, we want to just keep this for our in house location but this we will share, so there would be those sorts of levels that would allow people to decide at what point they make that accessible and how they do that. >> One thing is clear is if I have to say which is the priority in the data, it is clear to me that a lot of information are already available [inaudible] by all of us [inaudible] [laughter]. There are many different types of databases. Now, [inaudible] how to make them work together, how you can bring together whether this can be done through the invention of another database. I mean, this is something that does not make me happy. What makes me happy is what Barbara was saying perhaps we need to train people on how to look for the information. I mean, I have many courses at the University of Bologna. One of the key courses [inaudible] 32 hours of frontal lesson and 18 lessons of laboratory. The first six hours of the 32 are just related with how to look through the website on the information that is already available on a given particular [inaudible] such as malachite. We want to know everything about malachite, where can we find this information and then you train them regardless whether they are librarians or in this case they will be conservation scientists first of all where to look, where to find this information because they are already available. If you move a painting, I mean it is very difficult to find the x-ray that [inaudible] because as you say most of this information has property rights and so they are not public not because they cannot be made public but because there are rules that do not allow you to make it so this information is frozen there within the institution. This is why the [inaudible] is becoming so important because what they are looking for is all of the information which is not available and probably will not be available because they are forced to stay where they are because of many reasons, the last one is that perhaps there are institutions that don't want to make their house section available to the others just because they are- >> Theirs. >> Just because they are theirs and this is my job, I took a lot of time to do this job and I don't want the others to be part of this so we have to consider all of these cultural diversity if you want because it relates also with different types of cultural diversity so the key point is the accessibility of data, not how to structure the already available data in something else, how to make the accessibility even more easy, in my opinion. >> Well, time will take care of that one. >> What? >> Time will take care of that. People will die off, you know? ^M02:25:42 [ Laughter ] ^M02:25:46 >> Not us but you know- >> And actually, if I could just talk to that, this is something that came up very strongly when we had the meeting in 2014, that we need a better communication platform and ways to actually link to all of these different initiatives because you know, I think there's so much going on that all these meetings that were being mentioned and I think Luca was saying he got invited to a meeting two days away, how do we make, this is a little bit past the data but if we don't know that a meeting is on we don't know where that is, so I think that's another part that we need to think about is how we communicate and link more effectively between all our institutions. >> Another aspect of this is, I mean a while ago you were asking the question about the fact that conservators come from different disciplines so many have a background in art history or studio art with limited chemistry or vice versa. And so, there's a learning that takes place during the course of conservation training where everybody has their strengths and weaknesses and everybody helps each other out. Now, one thing that is a bit of a problem when you look at people who are strictly studying art history for example is relatively few academic programs at the university level are emphasizing the technical aspects of art history that I'm aware of. It's gradually changing I think but this is an area where I think many art historians either enter the academic world or the curatorial world without having an introduction to the technical aspects of it in a very solid way anyway and so they happen upon it because of personal interest or because of their experience wherever they are. So, I think influencing the academic training of art historians is one what that we could influence the future. I think one thing that's very good is because we have become much more effective at presenting our information visually, that has really increased dramatically an interest in what many people are calling technical art history because obviously reading tables of numbers does not go over well with many art historians but if you can look at pictures or images that have been mapped to show you specific information about where's malachite in this particular painting mapped on an image or the dramatic increase in what we can do with hyperspectral and other- >> Yeah, I think simple imaging tools like Photoshop have helped take us to that first step and the more advanced digital tools that are being developed specifically for our use in layering multiple different kinds of technical information in a way that gives an image that an art historian like Cecilia can actually work through and decode has moved us significantly together over the past few years, which is a wonderful thing. People do say that vocabulary has been a great divide between the arts and the sciences but I think it's not just vocabulary, it's also ways of thinking and I think we should get into that. Before we go on with vocabulary, someone has a question here. >> It's more a remark as a question. I think for [inaudible] where malachite is in a picture for instance, might also be very interested to know [inaudible] educated laypeople say oh that's what I'm looking at so Photoshop is one way of looking at it so that's my remark. >> Oh Joe, while Jorgen's coming up do you want to, are you, okay all right, now we're getting- ^M02:29:59 [ Laughter ] ^M02:30:01 >> All right Joe you get to go first because you're on the panel and then Luca, then Jorgen and anybody else wants to come and ask a question, you've got to get in line. >> Take a number. >> I was just going to say we need to remember that this has the potential for multiple different types of research happening at the same time so if you have an art historian who is researching the use of a particular pigment that's a particular job, there's a particular skill set involved in that. If you then have a scientist researching the analysis of a particular pigment, that's an entirely different form of research. You can then have a digital, I don't remember the term, someone doing digital humanities who's exploring how you present information on that particular thing. There are a number of different things to do and to sort of address Rocco's point beforehand, you spend sort of six hours training them how to find these pigments- ^M02:30:58 [ Inaudible Comment ] ^M02:31:00 >> Yeah but it's a question about how many times do you do that before you work out, just put it all in one place and then they can all find it? If you looked back 20 years ago, how long would it have taken them to find the same information? Now, it's not their research to make it more accessible, that's the thing. It's someone else's research to make it accessible but if you've got a lot of informatics people doing research, if you effectively can say it takes us six hours to do this can you do it faster, can we direct the research that's done by other people to make our research easier? I think that's a tricky one because often conservation science borrows from so many different fields we can end up feeling it's our job to do everything whereas that's not actually possible. Because we work in an interdisciplinary field it's very good to be able to say this is my area, it's not my job to do that but it would be really handy if someone else can do it and then more we can gather these questions, these issues that are actually stopping people or slowing people down, we can help each other move forward. >> It's true. >> Luca? You want to weigh in and ask a question? >> Yes, more than a question I need kind of advice for the panel and not only from the panel but you may remember that we [inaudible]. I remember having several conversations with [inaudible] about where we are aiming to. By the way [inaudible] so we will continue this cooperation [inaudible]. Coming back to the point, maybe we are too crazy visionaries, too [inaudible] but I need to know we are aiming to because we are actually aiming somewhere and we had this nice [inaudible] too. My personal feeling and I've been involved in [inaudible], my feeling is that we need to speak about [inaudible] stone age problems. We are speaking about [inaudible] useless without tools. Maybe it could be useful to teach how to extract information on malachite but that's very [inaudible]. You have the digital system there, maybe [inaudible]but I expect that I will be able to ask my digital research assistant very complex questions in the near future and in our field I'd say one of these questions could be look, I found this manuscript. There's a very nice section of drawing [inaudible] similar or related to [inaudible] maybe before the age of that document and after it. Are you able to do that? Of course we need the software [inaudible] but if you don't have the database accessible you will not have the software because nobody's going to develop the software for a non-accessible database or a nonexistent database and if you get only the database but not the tools, you will not [inaudible]. I think the most important knowledge infrastructure around is Google because [inaudible] of the knowledge that is freely available [inaudible] so we need to aim to this [inaudible] situation where we can have research in a [inaudible] heritage and humanities and in [inaudible]. When I'm studying an object I put [inaudible] so if I'm studying a stone I can access the inscription and everything that has been studied and when I'm studying inscription [inaudible] I can access the stone [inaudible] historical context because the way of doing research is doing correlation and correlation can be only for the moment done by humans but you need to provide the information to the humans [inaudible]. That information must be there and in this very moment we are discussing possible potential information there with the exception of the [inaudible] but we cannot survive without [inaudible] tools because this infrastructure is databases plus tools, that will provide infrastructure services. >> I think Luca has put his finger on one of the challenges for doing the research, the discoverability of information but then the intellectual part of doing research requires our ability to synthesize and I think we do rely on Google and we are going to have to get over that in a little while. Jorgen, you had a comment or a question. >> Yeah well it is both, you mentioned that technical art history isn't being taught in very many places. It is coming up more and more and we are now a two year master course in English at the University of Amsterdam in technical art history where anybody here [inaudible] and University of Stockholm they're starting up in September '17, also a two year master for technical art history combining the traditional art history and I see from the colleagues I meet with in [inaudible] that there is more and more questions being aired about technical aspects of the objects that they are curating in the galleries but also having more and more questions to the validity of the science that they are provide so they will ask these groups more and more questions related to getting access to the data we have and their questions will be more and more complex, and they will question whether the data is trustworthy. I mentioned in my presentation [inaudible] dates that are being provided actually are validated because there are so many aspects of [inaudible] dating that are in the open so what is the date in reality and the more that kind of a question comes, the more it comes to us as [inaudible] group to provide sufficient amount of valid and validated data and I think the market will be increasing particularly also thanks to the database that [inaudible] the questions will be more complex and they will be [inaudible]. >> May I ask the audience if anyone has an idea of a tool that they wish was already existing to help them do their research in digital humanities or digital art history? So, we're not quite getting the message out of what's available to be used so Cecilia, your group, we need to maybe help them think about what tools they would need to crack open some of the digital data we have and that's where Jorgen, your work with training will help people devise the questions that then we build the tools to answer, to crack open because some of these things are hard like walnuts. ^M02:40:02 Well, if there are no more questions and since Fenella has offered to, but before actually, before we do that I'm just going to give everybody on the panel another one minute if they want to summarize their thoughts about where we are and where they think we should be going next especially maybe in terms of reacting to some of the questions that have come up. Michele, shall we start with you at this end this time? You're feeling good about CAMEO. >> Yeah, I'm feeling good except Joe has introduced me to a lot of possibilities of things that can be done now that CAMEO is on the media wiki platform as far as because now it's multiple pages that you can search for but apparently there's applications out there that you can ask questions and it can pull a set of pages together in a group and create answers to more than just the straight single material questions. >> That actually would be really interesting. I was just thinking about some of these things which are like books that have the first page for the introductory learner, the middle pages for the student learner and the whole chapter is for the researcher. And the truth is that the digital assets that we are building have information at all of those levels. The challenge is to use them at our appropriate level so if you're going to start that's great. >> Well hopefully it gives me something new to think about. >> That's great. Fenella, concluding thoughts? >> So I think that very much making the data accessible is critical but coming back to the datamining and the tools, it certainly has to be there and I was on a working group at the library a number of years ago and the whole point they were saying was well, we've got this data, it's freely accessible but the point was there's no way for people to actually get to it and mine it and so I think those two together really are something we need to look at to make ourselves more functional to new audiences. >> Teach the people to work together, that I think is not so easy because you said, it's more a matter of a frame mind, a matter of how you think, how you approach different problems. The same question tells different things to different people according to their background. >> So we have bridges to build as well as infrastructures under. >> I think one of the dangerous things here when we start doing digital humanities research is the technology to some extent is not really the problem anymore. The problem is the questions and the imaginations of the people doing the work and people asking the questions so we've talked a number of times about standards and one of the biggest standards, the ontological standards to describe cultural heritage information now is something called the [inaudible]. Now the [inaudible] has been around and devised for 20 odd years now but they've just brought out some new ones so there's one called [inaudible] which is all about modeling belief so you can go through the whole structure of ontologically modeling how much you believe something and whether someone else believes something else and I think there is a danger to some extent of technological level gazing in that you can spend years doing technology research because it's interesting and the technology research is really fun to do. But, without the two way conversation between the people actually exploring the data or wanting to research the data that other people have gathered, we're missing the opportunity and often it's people say well, I don't really want to get engaged with the digital bit because I have no idea what it is and it's complicated and then you've got the digital people who need to apply for a grant and to apply for a grant it's got to be new and novel which means they keep pushing the boundaries and you end up with this bit where the technology is going like this and you end up with a really sharp spike. So, I think our difficulty moving forward is making sure that the developments in the technology are actually making people's lives easier and making the jobs they need to do easier and quicker. >> Okay challenge. >> Yes. >> I will sort of build on what Joe just said which is that for me, I think it's extremely important to recognize that we need to have tools that are available to help people do what they actually want and need to do, not to say that you close the door on the fact that there are things that we haven't even thought about yet. And when Luca raises the question of how do we create these tools, I think that it's going to be very important that the many databases like for example, if one is looking for data it's not very useful to a broad audience to absolutely have to know exactly what is this database and then go there and search that. You need to be able to find it more at a Google-like way where the search for information doesn't require that you specifically go to one site and certainly I mean, with Conservation Space that information which is made accessible to a broader audience, our hope is that people use a Google search with the right tools they can actually find us and then you know, the gallery for example is the Official Archives of the Crest Foundation and all of that information, which we're close to, will be made fully accessible to the whole broad community out there and it's not absolutely decided but almost certainly it's going to happen by putting that into Conservation Space but that will be available to the public. I think that people using their normal search techniques like Google or something like that and then finding out that there's this wonderful data out there can really inspire people to dream things we haven't even thought of yet. >> Well that sounds like a very good moment to end. I would like to thank all the panelists and invite Fenella to come to the podium for concluding remarks. ^M02:46:51 [ Applause ] ^M02:46:57 >> This has got to be one of the most unwieldy microphones I've ever worked with. So just a few things to put out there to prime you for tomorrow and make sure that you're still all awake. Just an overview that we've had a really wonderful in depth overview of the state of research infrastructure initiatives, we've looked at the challenges of promoting these at a policy level and also looked at the differences in approaches between the European and the US approach and the different funding models and how that ties into, sort of pushing us in slightly different directions. That, from the US side a number of my colleagues and I have talked about the focus on some sort of consortium to provide a united front in lieu of our Ministry of Culture and what I very much like from [inaudible], how the new baseline funding in the US, that we kind of are happy if it's flat and it's not shrunk. It's sad but it's real. And how do we squeeze more from the resources we have for our collaborative efforts? I think that's really what a lot of us are saying that we're engaging in some of the efforts and if we can make better use of those then we can really make things go a little bit further. What I did find very strong though is that the underlying thread in terms of the strength of the collaborations is the personal connections and interactions and all of us have found and have been motivated to engage more effectively because of strong personal interactions and because we feel so deeply about what we do and so I think that's going to help us all move forward with the wonderful approach to really sharing and being engaged in what the field needs, where the field needs to be. So this heritage network of experts and professionals linked to the multidisciplinary fields and colleagues outside is really what we're trying to pull together here. And just as a final point what I really, really want is my own virtual digital assistant [laughter]. So thank you all so much. If you have any questions about location [inaudible] at the back and if any of you would like a quick tour through our labs just to see what we've got, we'd be delighted to host that so again, thank you to all of the speakers today and thank you all for your attention. ^M02:49:19 [ Applause ] ^M02:49:23 >> This has been a presentation of the Library of Congress. Visit us at loc.gov. ^E02:49:31