>> From the Library of Congress in Washington DC.
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>> Georgette Dorn: Good afternoon. My name is Georgette Dorn and I'm the Head of the Hispanic Division Library of Congress and I can say that this library is the home of Borges. He always said when he came to visit us many times in the 60s, 70s and 80s, "Esta es mi casa" This is my home. So, it's a great pleasure to welcome here his wonderful widow and collaborator, Maria Kodama.
So, this very exciting event will be helded by the Embassy of Argentina, by Ambassador Martin Lousteau. He is Argentina's Ambassador and Minister of [inaudible] he comes by a time that he would be doing a great job in the [inaudible] the relations between Argentina and the United States. He's a graduate of universities in Buenos Aires, and also the London School of Economics and Politics Science.
He's the author of many books and has been a columnist for major Argentine newspapers. He served in the government of President Cristina Kirchner, the Ambassador's also a member of the Argentine Congress and he was a he was a world fellow [phonetic] at the EN University.
Maria Kodama is the collaborator wife and soul of Borges in many ways. She was the writer's collaborator of many years and she's the [inaudible] of the state of Borges, one would say the guardian of the state. She was a professor of literature at the University of Buenos Aires and the translator of Borges, "El libro de la almohada".
Saul Sosnowski, is professor of literature and the University of Maryland in College Park. He's a graduate of University of Virginia and have founded the Issues [phonetic] of International Studies the University of Maryland, he was the Vice [phonetic] for many years at the University of Maryland. He has travelled [inaudible] with Borges sometimes and he has written a book of Borges, "Borges y la Kabala", and he translated, "El libro de la almohada".
So, with us the three speakers. Thank you -- and the ambassador.
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[ Applauses ]
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>> Martin Lousteau: Thank you Georgette and good evening everyone and welcome. Usually when ambassadors are asked to speak about a great fellow countryman, we are given written pieces that tell their deeds, their personal characteristics and sometimes our own experiences regarding this people. I've done that in -- regarding Borges in a recent seminar that George W University organized. And I'm very glad that I'm not going to embarrass myself by doing that tonight. The reason being that today among us we have -- for this commemoration and homage to one of the greatest writers in world literature, we have the person who knew Borges the most and who knows his work the most.
We are really honored and I'm really pleased to be able to introduce a writer, translator, literature professor, the creator of the Jorge Luis Borges foundation and besides all that, the writer's widow. So, Maria Kodama, welcome, thank you very much for being here. Maria has dedicated her whole life to spread Borges' legacy around the world so I think that the best thing that I can do is to begin this presentation by quoting Maria herself. When asked last month why Borges' work was becoming increasingly relevant, she replied, "Because his work not only tells a story, but also underlies within philosophy, religion and scientific curiosities and the proof of this is that after he left, the fields of mathematics, philosophy, neurosciences also became interested in his work. This also happened to Jules Verne. In each century a person is born, neither better nor worse but who possesses the potential to see what we don't see. And that person plants the seed of fantastic literature which is a reality today as is space travel. Borges certainly saw what other people could not and he generously shared his magical worlds letting us navigate new dimensions."
This is true to such an extent that critics were forced to create a new word, a new logism, "Borgesium", to capture the -- I wouldn't say words, but the magical state of mind that Borges invented and gave us. Maria with her tireless work not only helps make this magic world remain alive but also for this world to gain an ever increasing number of followers.
Recently Maria published, "Homenaje a Borges" The book that I think Saul has in his hand, where she compiled 20 lectures she has given at universities and institutions worldwide during the last 30 years. This is a clear example of Maria's work, also as Georgette said, we are really honored to be celebrating this here today. Not only because Borges claimed this to be his home, but also because it is a library, and libraries are important, not only in Borges' life but also in his work. And his stayed here at the US.
The Library of Congress has collaborated with the embassy to present you this amazing array of first edition books by Borges', a documentary and some audios of the Argentine writer that are part of the library's collection. Now, as I said before, I'm so glad I'm not going to speak anymore and to speak about Jorge Luis Borges I give the floor to the person who knew him the best and who might really thank for coming here as our especial guest. Maria, thank you very much for being here, it is an honor and Saul, the floor is all yours. Thank you very much and enjoy.
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[ Applauses ]
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>> Saul Sosnowki: Thank you Mr. Ambassador, thank you Georgette. This is home for many of us so it's good to be back. Before we start let me introduce Melissa Gonzales Contreras who is a PhD student at the University of Maryland and she will be summarizing the comments that Maria Kodama will make, in response to some of the questions that I've prepared.
Empiezo, ¿qué era para nosotros el arte? El texto que cierra tu homenaje a Borges quizá me sirva para trazar un itinerario, teniéndolo siempre presente, ¿cuál es la primera imagen que se te aparece al decir, "Borges"?
I'll translate. In this book that the ambassador mentioned, "Homenaje a Borges" Maria Kodama has a text that is called, "What was art for us?" And that's the final text that closes the book that I think might serves us as an itinerary for tonight's conversation. So, having Borges always in mind, present, the question is, "What is the first image that comes to mind to Maria Kodama just by simply saying Borges?"
>> Maria Kodama: I don't know.
>> Saul Sosnowski: Será que lo prendemos. Permiso.
>> Maria Kodama: Excuse I understand English [inaudible] but I don't speak it properly, the next one I'm going to answer in Spanish. And you can ask me in English OK? [Inaudible] realmente es como decían en España [inaudible] es decir, la primera aproximación que yo tuve a Borges sin saber que era Borges, fue una lectura que le hizo una profesora que debía enseñarle inglés y evidentemente no le enseñó pero yo me divertía muchísimo con ella porque me hacía un resumen de lo que ella estaba leyendo que eran textos para adultos por supuesto. Y decía en español [inaudible] y seguía ella con su lectura y lo más interesante que una vez me leyó [inaudible] Borges [Inaudible] era una mujer de la que él había estado enamorado [inaudible].
Y para una creatura de cinco años, [inaudible]; me llenó porque decía él que ella -- él le ofrecía a ella su fracaso, su soledad [inaudible] el hambre de mi corazón.
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Para una creatura de cinco años el hambre del corazón era lo que es [inaudible]. Yo tenía cinco años y bueno, era realista. Entonces ella le contestó que el hambre del corazón era amor y que [inaudible]. Y esa esa fue la primera vez, la segunda vez cuando [inaudible], yo tendría 10 años y cayó en mis manos una revista. Esa revista seguramente era [inaudible]. Entonces yo empecé a leer, "Nadie los vio desembarcar en la unánime noche", y yo dije, ¿qué es esto? Lo he leído hasta el final sin entender una palabra, pero hasta el día de hoy si tuviéramos que quemar la obra de todos los escritores salvando solo una, esa es la única que yo salvaría.
Y es muy interesante porque muchos [inaudible] de los años [inaudible] que publicaron y me dieron para que yo hiciera el prólogo, un libro de entrevistas que [inaudible] Campo había hecho a Borges [inaudible] fotografías. Entonces llegó el momento en el que yo [inaudible] atentamente tenía que hacer el prólogo y en un momento ella le dice, "Borges, acá hay una casa que tiene un jardín a la izquierda y una escalera a la derecha", y Borges contestó, "Si es esa, es la casa de la calle [inaudible] donde yo en una semana escribí "Las ruinas circulares". Durante esa semana yo trabajaba con [inaudible] pero lo único que quería era [inaudible] esa casa para escribir ese cuento porque nunca, ni antes ni después pude escribir un cuento con la intensidad con que yo escribí ese cuento. Es decir que esa intensidad [inaudible] chica de 10 años que no entendió nada, pero que hasta el día de hoy quedó atrapada con ese cuento y que sería el único que yo salvaría [inaudible]. Y es un fascinante, es fascinante y lamenté tanto que Borges ya no estuviera porque a él le hubiera encantado porque yo le decía, ¿Qué le gusto de ese cuento?, No sé, una intensidad una cosa, pero él nunca me dijo eso. Pero se lo dijo en esa entrevista Victorio Campo cuando Victorio Campo le describía la foto. [inaudible] es fascinante.
>> Saul Sosnowski: ¿Y esa es la primera imagen que te viene a la mente? ¿Es ese cuento?
>> Maria Kodama: Es ese cuento, sí. Es ese cuento.
>> Saul Sosnowski: Yes, good luck. 
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[ Laughter ] 
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This is just going to be a summary, OK?
>> Melissa: OK, the first memory is not really an image but it's a, "de oídas", yes, [inaudible]. The first time was a teacher who taught her to speak English, the teacher would read the - whatever she was reading at that time to her and one day she read two poems by Borges and -- that was dedicated to a man and a woman. She was five years old by the time.
>> Saul Sosnowski: Not the woman but the --
>> Melissa: No, no. In the poems Borges offered his solitude to this woman and his hunger of heart, "hambre de corazón". So, Mrs. Kodama being a 5 year-old girl felt intrigued by this description and asked what it meant, her teacher responded, "That's love, one day you'll understand".
The second time was when she was 10 years old reading, revista Azul, she read a text by Borges and according to her, she didn't understand it either and in an interview with Victorio Campo,  Borges mentioned a where he wrote, "Las Ruinas Circulares", and he mentioned that he just wanted to return to that house because that house allowed him to write with intensity that short story. And this is what captured Mrs. Kodama from Borges, his intensity. 
>> Good job.
>> Saul Sosnowski: Thank you. Indeed. So, well, all right. The several stories in which Borges since you said that -- can I -- ¿Te lo pregunto en Inglés o en castellano? ¿De una vez? ¿Sí?
>> Maria Kodama: Si no entiendo te digo.
>> Saul Sosnowski: Bueno. In a number of stories, there is a certain motive that comes up that -- and he also does it in Tadeo Isidor Cruz, La biografía de Tadeo Isidor Cruz; that there is a moment in a man's life I imagine in woman's life too that one will forever know who he or she is. So, the question is, what do you think was that moment for Borges?
>> Maria Kodama: Well, I cannot say what was that moment for Borges, but I can say what was that the moment for Borges life for mine.
>> Saul Sosnowski: Good, that was the second question.
>> Maria Kodama: [Inaudible] and then once we had to go to Santiago de Chile to receive the Doctorado Honoris Causa [inaudible]. Then [inaudible] and I said Borges [inaudible] and he said, "Oh, no nos hagamos ilusiones", and he [inaudible] to speak to the person [inaudible] when he was talking to someone, then I suddenly he gave me [inaudible] he was in silence and then he said, "thank you, I appreciate [inaudible] but there are two things that [inaudible] cannot stand, sobornar o dejarse sobornar. 
>> Saul Sosnowski: To bribe or to allow yourself to be bribed.
>> Maria Kodama: Then after [inaudible] my duty is, and I'm going to go to Chile, and then I said to Borges [inaudible] and he said, "¿Usted diría eso? [Inaudible] no." Then he took me in his arms and said OK, is better this way because I became the icon of the Nobel prize [inaudible] who could never [inaudible]. In this way, no.
So, so beautifully, because you know, nothing can change his principles, nothing can change that. And I admire that. [Inaudible].
>> Saul Sosnowski: Thank you. You got an excellent English teacher by the way.
>> Maria Kodama: No, no. Did you understand? Yes? [Crosstalk].
>> Saul Sosnowski: I remember one time he also said that he's been a candidate for so long that people probably forgot the he already got it. That's why he's no longer a candidate. And --
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In this same book, there is a text that is called, "¿Qué es el tiempo?" And you begin with a quote from Saint Agustin that says, "¿Qué es pues el tiempo? Si nadie me lo pide, lo sé. Si quiero explicárselo a quién me lo pide, no lo sé. What is time? If nobody will ask me what it is, I know what it is. But if somebody is going to ask me to explain it, I do not know what time is." The question would then be, "What was the time with Borges? And what has it been for you since 1986?
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>> Maria Kodama: As with Borges? From 1986 and continue, because --
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[ Inaudible ] 
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And for me on working with [inaudible] and more physically with you, but there is [inaudible].
>> Saul Sosnowski: That's what you always say.
>> Maria Kodama: Yeah, that's it.
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>> Saul Sosnowski: In one of those essays you also wrote, "Creo que nadie puede ser mero espectador de un proceso de creación, sobre todo de alguien que como Borges emanaba una fuerza tan especial para la que uno se sentía arrastrada." And in one of these essays Maria Kodama says that nobody can be just a spectator in the creative process, particularly in Borges' case because there was such a strong power that was emanating from it that one felt that was being carried away by it. My question is, "Is there some sort of text that you remember in particular that carried you away more than others, besides the Circle of Ruines.
>> Saul Sosnowski: Why?
>> Maria Kodama: Besides the circle of Circle of Ruines. Let me remember. Maybe La Biblioteca [inaudible].
>> Maria Kodama: Maybe the [inaudible] again. Bueno la Biblioteca de Babel, supongo que es por esa idea [inaudible] de que todas las cosas de alguna manera vuelven. De en realidad nadie entiende lo que está sucediendo. [Inaudible], que es un poco [inaudible] ¿no? Así que sería así Biblioteca de Babel, la circularidad, la imposibilidad de la comprensión y [inaudible].
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Que no sabía [inaudible] ¿qué tiene? [Inaudible] ¿Quién está? Digamos ordenándose [inaudible] entonces  muy interesante [inaudible] de la comprensión de [inaudible] pensaba que sabe que iba a morir y de pronto comprender que no importa eso, él está más allá de todo eso y es como si él es mismo esa eternidad [inaudible] y eso se lo rebela la figura del tigre, el tigre que está dando vueltas alrededor de [inaudible]. Entonces esa referencia [inaudible] comprender eso le fascina a él. Nosotros tuvimos una experiencia muy especial en el desierto. [Inaudible]. [inaudible] nunca tuve vacaciones, y según mis amigos, esas eran vacaciones masoquitas. Yo soy muy amiga de [inaudible] él me ayudó a que yo fuera en una carpa con los familiares de su secretario y yo recuerdo que comía arena y todo, no me importa, al desierto con una carpa. Y una [inaudible] yo recuerdo y no puedo explicar cómo pero intelectualmente sabe, uno, no es nada, no es cierto? [inaudible] emocionalmente también, sabe que uno no es anda, pero en ese momento, en ese lugar, sentí el otro punto que yo no sabía que existía en mí, que "no soy nada". Y eso para mí fue una revelación que cambió la manera de ver muchísimas cosas de mi propia vida, [inaudible].
>> Saul Sosnowski: Estos botoncitos. Ahí vamos.
>> Melissa: The two types that she refered to is, "La Biblioteca de Babel" And, "El immortal" From la Biblioteca de Babel, she likes the idea of -- that everything -- I'm sorry. That no one understands what happens, the circularity. That they don't know who is in charge of the library. And from, "El Immortal" The idea of comprehension at the present that he knows that he will die and that it doesn't matter. And the idea of the eternity and it's the figure of the tiger that reveals this idea to him. So, that the wisdom in comprehending this, and she has this fascination with the desert. In one trip to the desert she realized she had that same realization, that she came to realize that she does -- she is no one, sorry, I want to say that.
>> Saul Sosnowski: Esto lo vamos a dejar prendido porque -- [inaudible] of course is in, "Las Ruinas Circulares" And therefore we can sort of blend in with "El Inmortal". But then he was dying. Let me ask you something else. He probably dictated a lot of text to you. The question is did he tell you in advance, "I'm going to dictate a poem, a short story, I'm going to do this or that", can you tell us a little bit how he arrived from the moment that he began to dictate to the final version, knowing free will that it was not the final version because he always corrected. The next one, the next one and so on. So, how did he start?
>> Maria Kodama: [inaudible] he starts from [inaudible] and then he think in the morning if that is going to be useful or not, if it's not going to be useful, OK [inaudible] and if it is going to be useful [inaudible] a poem or a [inaudible] in his mind, he begun to dictate or the poem or the [inaudible] interesting because in the foundation I have a photo I think is the [inaudible] I'm not sure [inaudible] Borges is with the head like this, and he's [inaudible] and that's the way he begun to dictate. It was like being blind, is not sufficient for him to go inside himself and go out with a poem, with the [inaudible]. For me that's the image of the beginning of the creation, that's why I have a photo [inaudible].
>> Saul Sosnowski: I saw it, is spectacular. You mentioned that there was only one poem that he never touched because Kafka dictated that poem to him.
>> Maria Kodama: Yes, yes. It was very, very funny because he was always correcting and correcting, all the [inaudible] and then I was amazed because a one poem he never corrected [inaudible] and he said,  [inaudible] "No I can't, I have to wait [inaudible] and then, when Kafka corrects the poem I'm going to correct, it's not my poem, it's Kafka's poem."
>> Saul Sosnowski: That's funny because at one point he talks about "Una letrina llamada Kafka" Although he spells it differently. Borges used to talk about the music in poems, the sense and sounds of poetry. What kind of music did you listen with him?
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>> Maria Kodama: Well, [inaudible] because Borges said he was [inaudible] sordo musical.
>> Saul Sosnowski: A musical deafness?
>> Maria Kodama: Deafness, yes musical deafness. But it's strange because he like for example [inaudible] and also for example [inaudible] cannot here the music [inaudible]. And also he loved for example tangos de la guardia vieja, because he said that that kind of tangos are [inaudible] essence of tangos. [Inaudible] he doesn't love Gardel, because he said that Gardel did with the tango something sentimental [inaudible].
[Inaudible] and he doesn't like [inaudible] also the Milonga because that reminded him  [inaudible]-
>> Saul Sosnowski: He wrote quite a few.
>> Maria Kodama: Yes, yes of course. He wrote [inaudible] you know it? [Inaudible], tangos y milongas, [inaudible] de tango of the guardia vieja, [inaudible] when he was a little boy.
>> Saul Sosnowski: First stage. How was the Buenos Aires that you shared with him? What kind of Buenos Aires did you work [inaudible] with him?
>> Maria Kodama: [Inaudible] and usually the [inaudible] very much [inaudible] because he said that was the savage's [inaudible], and then [inaudible] basement and [inaudible].
>> Saul Sosnowski: ¿El viejo Palermo?
>> Maria Kodama: Yes, yes, el viejo Palermo.
>> Saul Sosnowski: You travelled a lot with him. One of the results is, "The Atlas". Can you tell us a little bit about that?
>> Maria Kodama: [Inaudible] -- very interesting.
>> Saul Sosnowski: Don't tell the funny stories yet, I have them for  later. Please wait.
>> Maria Kodama: No, we enjoyed, we did a lot of travels, [inaudible] the states that [inaudible]. In Argentina because [inaudible] we travelled a lot inside the states.
>> Saul Sosnowski: He also said Americans are sort of strange people who say, "hi", to each other.
>> Maria Kodama: [Inaudible] and that's for him [inaudible] I mean, it can [inaudible] that's.
>> Saul Sosnowski: Let's go to one of the fun stories. I've heard it but I think it's worth for the people to hear it. And -- there was a time when you created names for each other. You were Rica y Javier Ottawa [phonetic]. How did those names come about?
>> Maria Kodama: It was [Inaudible] from [inaudible] and a short story that was [inaudible] present for me. [Inaudible] and that's why I would [inaudible].
>> Saul Sosnowski: So, you came up with those two names for yourselves?
>> Maria Kodama: Yes, sometimes [inaudible] different names [inaudible].
>> Saul Sosnowski: For example? Those are the two published, tell us something that is not published.
>> Maria Kodama: No, no, no. I don't know if I [inaudible].
>> Saul Sosnowski: We will not repeat it, go ahead.
>> Maria Kodama: [Inaudible] for example, one of the names was, once an English journalist [inaudible] I would call him Fernando Pérez. And then sometimes, he send someone to ask to me [inaudible] because he was tired, that means we had to run out,  because he thought he was tired. And then he said [inaudible], "no no no, I called you because [inaudible]" say that when he saw us coming into the room, immediately he thought we were [inaudible] in honor to that journalist [inaudible].
>> Saul Sosnowski: OK, not to be repeated.
>> Maria Kodama: Not to be repeated.
>> Saul Sosnowski: Borges said to you once, "Su padre la educó para mi" Your father educated you for me. And I was thinking of that in the context of the trip that you did with a hot air balloon. 
>> Maria Kodama: Ah yes, that's wonderful.
>> Saul Sosnowski: Can you tell us about that trip?
>> Maria Kodama: Yes, I was [inaudible] looking something for a friend of mine who asked me if I can [inaudible]. Then suddenly I saw the balloons, [inaudible] immediately will happen, don't fill these papers, we have to go [inaudible] trip in the balloon. At one moment [inaudible] impossible to make the trip because [inaudible] married [inaudible] for the wedding and then we talked to another one and [inaudible] and we went. But we had to go very very early in the morning, because of course air balloon is on fire, and then all  night, he had the the canastita, [inaudible] the basket is going to be in  [inaudible] or in plástico, and I said, "Borges, I don't know" and he said anyway is canasta, no? Plástico o [inaudible] and when we arrived, the man said to us, of course [inaudible] the balloon and then, when the balloon descends we have to una caja [inaudible] and we land. And one bottle to drink  for the safety trip. And then it was very funnybecause the man said [inaudible] he can't here because [inaudible]  the balloon, [inaudible]  but it's dangerous [inaudible] . When I was young, I montar a caballo,  montar -
>> Saul Sosnowski: You still ride a horse
>> Maria Kodama: Yes, ride the horse, it's not easy -- it's not difficult, [inaudible] you can hit me and he said [inaudible] listen, we [inaudible] no matter what you say, he's going to [inaudible] you take care of him and the other person who is going with us also and [inaudible] for me, to me.
>> Saul Sosnowski: But not for Borges, you didn't sign for him?
>> Maria Kodama: No no, I signed for myself, the reason [inaudible] OK you take care of him, I sign for you, that myself I am going to try to do the things by myself, that you are not responsible if something happens to me, because you have to take care of him, not of me. [Inaudible].
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>> Saul Sosnowski: How long was [inaudible].
>> Maria Kodama: I can't remember, maybe [inaudible] I can't remember.
>> Saul Sosnowski: That's a good age [inaudible].
>> Maria Kodama: He enjoyed a lot, and then we go out with the balloon and he was so happy, very very happy [inaudible] amazing, amazing, yes, he said, "but this sir is great", [inaudible] is when he can embrace [inaudible] Buenos Aires, it was so beautiful photo of him between the patas [inaudible] and ther name was Rosy.
>> Saul Sosnowski: I hadn't heard that one. 
>> Maria Kodama: I'm going to show you the photo.
>> Saul Sosnowski: Great, the foundation? Good. What are the words that you associate with Borges?
>> Maria Kodama: The words that I associate -- [inaudible] No matter what.
>> Saul Sosnowski: Everything.
>> Maria Kodama: OK, [inaudible] freedom, happiness --
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Loyalty.
>> Saul Sosnowski: What was the first one?
>> Maria Kodama: I can't remember, you don't remember -- [crosstalk].
>> Saul Sosnowski: You said freedom? Happiness? And loyalty. In that order?
>> Maria Kodama: Yes, I suppose [inaudible], I'm not sure.
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>> Saul Sosnowski: Tell us about the trip to the pyramids.
>> Maria Kodama: The trip to the pyramids [inaudible] silbó and then from las piramides salieron unos [inaudible] y entonces yo le dije, bueno, mis amigos tienen razón, esta gente no parece muy confiable, a uno le falta una oreja [inaudible] no, no es maravilloso, la venida aquí esto es maravilloso. Entonces el [inaudible], el chofer dijo "bueno, llamadlos [inaudible]", Borges se sienta, se agarra del cuello de ellos y ellos empiezan a correr. Entonces yo pensaba que adentro de las pirámides [inaudible] y yo le decía, "Borges, [inaudible] Borges, cuidado con la cabeza, cuidado con la cabeza" Y los egipcios decían, "Cabiza [phonetic], cabiza" y reían como locos sujetando [inaudible] me mira y me dice, "Maria, no digas cabeza, cabeza, debe ser una palabra obscena por la forma en que ellos [inaudible] yo la repito enseguida, no digas cabeza" Entonces ellos decían "Cabiza" entonces yo decía, quién sabe lo que quiere decir en árabe y ellos entienden en lugar de cabeza, "cabiza" [inaudible].
>> Saul Sosnowski: ¿Hay alguien que sepa árabe y sepa lo que dice Cabiza? No, habrá que buscarlo.
>> Melissa: I'm going to see if I start to check in the word that she said. There were homeless people that came out of the pyramid, one was missing an ear and then the -- they carried Borges into the pyramid, but they were running and Mrs. Kodama was afraid that once they entered the pyramids, and since it was dark he was going to get hurt.
>> Saul Sosnowski: As he was being carried along by them.
>> Melissa: Yes, yes. And she kept repeating, "La cabeza, la cabeza, you head." And the men that were carrying Borges laughed and repeated, "Cabiza, cabiza." And so, Borges asked her not to say cabeza because he thought it meant something in Arabic and they were pronouncing, "Cabiza" and it was probably and insult.
>> Saul Sosnowski: An obscene word.
>> Melissa: An obscene word, yes.
>> Saul Sosnowski: I've got a couple more questions and then we open it to the public. One of them is, he knew a lot of languages, some of them self-taught. Someone asked me, did he ever learn in braille?
>> Maria Kodama: No [crosstalk].
>> Saul Sosnowski: Why?
>> Maria Kodama:  Because [inaudible]. Because [inaudible] his mother [inaudible] and then he said, "é les perezoso", entonces --
>> Saul Sosnowski: Which is obviously one of the things he has [inaudible]. You put together a collection books, like a library. You and Borges. The collection of select books, I wonder how you went up on selecting the books that you published in that library.
>> Maria Kodama: The books that he loved, [inaudible] --
>> Saul Sosnowski: Just the ones that he loved.
>> Maria Kodama: Yes, just the books that he loved.
>> Saul Sosnowski: And the question that -- and with this I'll stop -- maybe. Can you imagine yourself doing anything else in your life had you not met Borges, what would you have done?
>> Maria Kodama: It's really interesting because [inaudible] my professor [inaudible] at that moment [inaudible] said [inaudible] extend el ligamento y no puedo caminar bien, pero adoro bailar.
>> Saul Sosnowski: She likes to dance except there is a little problem.
>> Maria Kodama: Ligamento, OK, y luego Borges said, "en mi familia no ha habido [inaudible]" pero, me dice, "Si usted quiere, puede hacerlo." Ahora yo le voy a explicar algo, siempre lo explico. [Inaudible] entonces me dijo, "Si usted va a la calle [inaudible] después no puede entra por [inaudible] se va a sentir muy mal, en cambio, [inaudible], estudiar, usted aprende fácilmente, lo que uno le va a enseñar y eso no tiene fin, no me dijo que podía. [Inaudible] lo mismo no? Entonces me dijo las cosas por la mitad, entonces decidí no entrar en Colón sino seguir estudiando. 
>> Saul Sosnowski: Le hiciste caso.
>> Maria Kodama: Sí, no me di cuenta que le hacía caso, yo creía que lo hacía yo. [Laughter] porque no me dijo toda la verdad.
>> Melissa: So, Borges said to her, "There's no dancers in my family, but [crosstalk] yes, fine I'm sorry. But, he told her, "If you decide to dance, you'll be able to do it for a while but after that you won't be able too. And on the other hand if you study and if you want to teach, that's something you can continue on doing and so, she decided not to go to el Teatro Colón, and continue studying.
>> Saul Sosnowski: And teach. Which is boundless, we don't have to retire. Even if some people want us to. Right? And.
^M00:49:30
^M00:49:35
Before I turn it over, one more question. Borges said many times that he's an agnostic, but at the same time he talked about mystical experiences that he had. What happened there? How did he blend those two positions?
^M00:49:55
>> Maria Kodama: [Inaudible] agnostic.
>> Saul Sosnowski: Just in case. Go ahead.
>> Maria Kodama: Just in case? OK, but he said that he has these mystic experiences when he wrote at night [inaudible]. One was in el Barrio Sur,  en un atardecer, en un anochecer, él sintió que estaba fuera del tiempo, entonces esto lo impresionó mucho y esa es la experiencia que  sintió así que era no normal o lógico. En fin, en la obra de él hay muchísimas citas a la Biblia, pero eso era por el lado de su abuela inglesa, él me decía que en esa época para los católicos estaba prohibido leer la Biblia por temer a la mala interpretación -
>> Saul Sosnowski: Hacían bien.
>> Maria Kodama: En cambio los protestantes  hasta el día de hoy tienen las Biblias [inaudible] y su abuela sabía [inaudible] entonces eso le quedó muy fuertemente unido a su parte digamos intelecutal, y la prueba es que a lo largo de su obra hay muchísimas [inaudible] Biblia, Jesucristo, no desde el punto de vista de la creencia total pero si --
>> Saul Sosnowski: Búsqueda de coherencia [inaudible].
^M00:51:47
^M00:51:52
>> Melissa: One of those mystic experience was during a walk at night in Barrio Sur. He felt that he was out of time and that impressed him, he felt something that wasn't normal, wasn't logical as if it were another dimension. In his work there are a lot of references from the Bible and this comes from his English grandmother. She knew parts of the Bible by memory and this influenced his intellectual life, not from a point of view of him believing in religion.
>> Saul Sosnowski: Did he always think [inaudible] is his best [inaudible]?
>> Maria Kodama: No, he changed his [inaudible] --
>> Saul Sosnowski: Do you have any other one besides [inaudible] that he considered his best or his favorite?
>> Maria Kodama: No, I can't remember the name [inaudible] but sometimes he said that [inaudible] Le gustaba mucho y también el que escribió a su abuelo [inaudible] a su abuelo que [inaudible] cinco años y él lo cuidó en su delirio y muere en una batalla, entonces es tristísimo porque él dice que él tenía cinco años cuando su abuelo murió y le decían que se había ido d eviaje y entonces él caminaba por la casa tratando de encontrar a su abuelo, era una cosa muy triste, sí.
>> Melissa: So, besides [inaudible], another poem that he mentioned a lot was, "El otro Tigre" and one that he wrote for his grandfather who died in battle, Borges was five years old when his grandfather passed away. And he was told that he have gone on a trip. So Borges, as a child used to look for his grandfather not knowing that he had passed.
>> Saul Sosnowski: OK. Open to the public, questions.
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Somebody will bring you a mic.
^M00:54:36
^M00:54:47
>> Gracias, pregunto en castellano y después traduzco si quieren.
>> Saul Sosnowski: Sí.
>> Me interesa mucho lo que dijo acerca de la libertad y la lealtad como dos de las palabras que [inaudible] en Borges, porque creo que [inaudible] a cierta obediencia incondicional a cierta proximidad la constante y la libertad por otra parte, una suerte de partida o de separación. Yo no creo que las dos sean contradictorias en absoluto, y se pueden conjugar bien, y creo que [inaudible] me interesa saber qué era la lealtad para ustedes, y la libertad y cómo se combinaban. 
And in English, basically I think that traditionally freedom implies a certain kind of unconditional proximity and loyalty and freedom are kind of distance or departure [phonetic] how did you and Borges minded to in order to achieve that happiness that you described? What was loyalty for you and what was freedom for you and why were they not contradictory.
>> Maria Kodama: Bueno, yo creo que no son contrditorios la libertad y la lealtad, ¿cierto? Porque la libertad [inaudible] y la lealtad es la [inaudible] me gute o no me guste, OK [inaudubke] y la lealtad es digamos la [inaudible] a través de la cual nosotros, digamos, estamos interiormente, cómo puedo decir, no privados pero sí tenemos que tener la conciencia de que no podemos digamos [inaudible], es decir tenemos que ser fieles a nuestras ideas, a nuestros ideales de vida. Yo creo que esos son los términos que no se contradicen sino que [inaudible] a mi forma de pensar se unen, se completan, no sé si te contesté. Gracias.
>> Melissa: [Inaudible] and freedom contradict each other, and were the liberty is not freedom, Rather is not libertinaje?
>> Saul Sosnowski: OK, we have translators here, how do you say libertinaje? [Inaudible] it's not -- it doesn't exist in the Spanglish language, we don't practice it so, let's proceed [inaudible] right. It was better the other way.
>> Melissa: With respect to the loyalty, that conscience of not -- not going against someone else's ideals and she feels that they complement each other rather than contradicting.
>> Saul Sosnowski: Another question? Over there.
>> Gracias. Voy la hago en castellano la pregunta, con respecto a esa experiencia de Borges, de modernidad, de esa experiencia espiritual que mencionaste que había ocurrido en el sur, y luego inmediatamente se me ocurrió asociarlo [inaudible] no sé si es que exista alguna conexión.
>> Maria Kodama: Bueno posiblemente sí exista ¿no? Posiblemente esa experiencia [inaudible] ese cuento, y no sé, no puedo decirlo con seguridad, pero no es [inaudible] ya que esa experiencia es realmente una experiencia mística, ¿no? De alguna manera puede llegar a ver así todas las cosas en punto. Y es muy divertido porque él me contaba que ese cuento se le reveló [inaudible] caleidoscopio, estaba jugando con un caleidoscopio [inaudible].
>> A todos nos pasa lo mismo. [Laughter]
>> Saul Sosnowski: Yeah, [inaudible] go for it. ¿Me permites un tantito esto?
>> Melissa: It's possible that that mystical experience of Borges could have shaped [inaudible], but she doesn't know for sure. Because they are both, could be both, [inaudible] mystic experiences, but that story came to Borges, the short story [inaudible] while playing with the kaleidoscope.
>> Saul Sosnowski: You didn't mention that one time where he was interviewed by a Spanish journalist who got very upset with him because Borges mentions the exact location of where the Aleph is and someone had told the journalist that he had made it up and got very angry and left him and said, "vale, vale, vale". We have a question over there.
>> [Inaudible] en español. Cómo era Borges en día a día considerando la cambiante y constante actividad o la política Argentina, era pasional, lo tomaba a veces con humor, se enganchaba terriblemente, digamos se preocupaba mucho, o digamos, los cambios políticos en Argentina que fueron muchísimos toda su vida, lo preocupaba mucho y de alguna manera lo quería expresar en los libros, ¿no?
I can translate it [inaudible] the life of Borges, in relation with Argentinian political situation [inaudible] probably in all his life changed a lot, that continuous to change every day, but I want to ask how was his humor with that, how was his relation with that, if he was very anxious with that, or not, or if he was very passionned [inaudible] politics of Argentina, how he feel?
>> Maria Kodama: Mira, I think that [inaudible] the different political situations [inaudible] and he was always very clear and [inaudible] someone who said [inaudible] for him of course because [inaudible] in his mind, but, he was very I think, very clear [inaudible] dictatorship and that's why he was free and a free person cannot undertand that kind of [inaudible] time [inaudible] about that, yes.
>> Saul Sosnowski: One final question.
>> Yo tenía un comentario muy rápido que es que  "cabiza" quiere decir "lío" en árabe.
>> Maria Kodama: Thank you, thank you.
>> Saul Sosnowski: That sort of makes sense considering that they were carrying him on his arms, that makes a lot of sense, thank you.
>> [Inaudible] de corazón [inaudible] cuán quisquilloso era Borges para la comida, qué cosas él no comía, qué cosas si le gustaba bastante, que no [inaudible] que siempre quería comer o [inaudible].
So, in English, keeping with the [inaudible] how picky was Borges in regards of food, what would he not touch, what would he really like to eat, or drink.
>> Saul Sosnowski: That is definitely a Cuban question. [Inaudible].
>> Maria Kodama: He loved arroz con manteca y queso, and cheese. [inaudible] always [inaudible] whose name was Maxim that was [inaudible] near Florida, in Buenso Aires, and then we went to [inaudible] invited us to a restaurant in [inaudible], he said, OK, the man began drink this wine, and Borges drink, he said, "I don't drink wine" then the man began to explain the food, and the - and then, the chef, the restaurant [inaudible] was [inaudible] Borges said, "OK, I want to eat arroz con manteca y queso", then the man said -- Borges, we are in Maxims -- and he said - this is a sucursal of Maxim in Buenos Aires [inaudible]  is the best restaurant de [inaudible] OK, I want to know how is the taste of my favourite dish arroz con manteca y queso in the best restaurant in the world.
>> Saul Sosnowski: On that note, we thank Maria Kodama for sharing these memories with us and to be continuing until another time. Thank you all for being here.
 ^M01:06:08
[ Applauses ]
^M01:06:13
>> This has been a presentation by the Library of Congress. Visit us at loc.gov