>> From the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C.
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>> Hong Ta-Moore: My name is Hong Ta-Moore. Reference librarian for Southeast Asian collection in the Asian division. Thank you for joining us today for a lecture on shadow theater in Indonesia. In collaboration with the embassy of Indonesia, the Asian division is honored to have two distinguished experts in the field of Balinese shadow theater to talk to us about this ancient form of storytelling through the use of puppets and shadows. Due to time constraints, please hold your questions until the end. With us today we have Dr. Andy McGraw, an associate professor of music at the University of Richmond, Virginia. He received his Ph.D. in ethnomusicology at Wesleyan University in 2005 and has published extensively on traditional and experimental music in southeast Asia. His performances and collaborations have appeared on the [inaudible] importer labels. He is the author of "Radical Traditions. Reimagining Culture in Bali's Contemporary Music" which was published in 2013 by Oxford University Press, and co-editor of "Performing Indonesia" published in 2016 by the Smithsonian Publications.

His current monograph project entitled "Good Music, Sound Ethics is an Ethnography of Music as Ethical Practice in Four Alternative Communities." A monastery, jail, commune, and village. Also joining us is Mr. Gusti Sudarta, a Balinese shadow master, musician, composer, dancer, and choreographer. At age six, Mr. Sudarta began extensive and continuous study of traditional Balinese performing arts, music, dance, and theater with family members and master performers in the villages of [inaudible]. He has been a permanent faculty member at the Institute of the Arts in [inaudible] since 1991. He is a renown performer of Balinese traditional forms and is at the forefront of contemporary experimentation. He has performed extensively in Asia, Europe, Australia, and America conducting three world tours with [inaudible] project between 1998 and 2003. He is currently pursuing his Ph.D. at SIS [inaudible] Indonesia. Please join me to welcome our guests. Thank you.
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[ Applause ]
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>> Andy McGraw: Hi, folks. Thanks for coming. So this is how this talk is going to go. We're going to demonstrate some traditional shadow theater techniques and talk about a traditional performance that has informed some experimental work that Pat Gutsi has been doing. And what we'll do first is I'll give a really brief introduction on Indonesia and Bali and shadow theater, and then I'll hand it over to Pat Gusti. He's not completely fluent in English so the way we put this paper together was yesterday I sat down with him and interviewed him on this topic, wrote up the notes in English, and he will be reading them today, and I'll be running the slides and showing the video and kind of coming back and maybe helping pronunciation if and when it needs a little bit of clarification. 

So I'm assuming if you're in the room, you know where the nation of Indonesia is. I don't need to go very deeply into this, I hope, other than to remind you that it's very large, very complicated nation with a lot of different ethnicities. A lot of different languages and many, many waves of migrations. So a lot of religious syncretism, cultural syncretism, and in Bali and Java, a really complicated mix of Buddhists, Hindu, and Islamic ideas, cultural practices, and mixture with indigenous animism. That's all I'm going to go with that. We could spend the rest of the talk on it but I get a sense that you already know this. Here is a sense of Bali and its regencies. Pat Gutsi is from the village of [inaudible] and [inaudible] which was the seat of the Balinese kingdom when the military expedition from [inaudible] in the 14th century came over to Bali and changed a lot of Balinese culture and introduced new religious and cultural practices. 

So, Pat Gutsi and I have been working together since about 2001, 2002. So he is one of my teachers of the rather specialized music that accompanies the Balinese shadow play. It's called [inaudible], but we've done a lot of collaborations together over the years. And we were just performing this weekend at the IluminAsia Festival over at the Smithsonian Saturday night and then Sunday morning and then over at the Kennedy Center Sunday evening. And we'll show you some footage from that. I assume also that you know WMR. So could we show the traditional shadow puppets of Indonesia. It's buffalo hide that's been perforated, cut, and then painted. Why do they paint it when you only see the shadow? It's both to help remind the puppeteer or the [inaudible] of the character traits of the puppets, but also because the audience often sits on both sides of the screen and they move around the performances. And after our talk, you can get a chance to come up and check them out more closely.

So what we thought what we would do is actually open up this talk by Pat Gutsi doing the traditional [inaudible]. The [inaudible] is the tree of life. Sometimes called the [inaudible] in the [inaudible] tradition, and it dances to create the universe of the play. So we found what we would open up with a traditional [inaudible] performance and then what's called the [inaudible] or the fragrant forest which is the scene in which the [inaudible] recites poetry in the [inaudible] language that sets the scene and introduces the main characters before Pat Gutsi reads his section of the paper.

So what we'll do here is we'll play -- so we have some music. We'll play; if this works, we'll play the scene from the Kennedy Center performance yesterday. So we had some music to accompany the [inaudible] here. Oh, error loading media file. Wonderful. Nice. Yes. Let's see. Let's try it one more time. There we go. Cue it up.
>> If you click on select [inaudible].
>> Yes. I want you to look at him though and listen.
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[ Music ]
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So when you hear that knocking it's him hitting the side of the shadow puppet box and that wakes the puppets up and invites the gods to descend into them.
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[ Inaudible comment ]
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>> I will. I will. Look at him now.
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[ Music ]
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So there were moments in there where I think you can see it represents wind, represents water, represents land. And then what he would do is he would sing the scene for [inaudible] and he chose some special texts for these performances based on a legend called Sutasoma. A story called Sutasoma. Normally it's a different text that's used, but he took this text from this story, and the author or the scribe that set this version of Sutasoma has been informing Pat Gutsi's experimental work. So we wanted to start from there so you have a sense of the kind of evolution from the traditional text to the experimental work that we'll show later at the end. And I'll slide through the translations of the [inaudible] that he's going to sing. That would be the next session of the shadow play.
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[ Singing ]
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[ Singing ]
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Sorry. 
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[ Singing ]
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[ Foreign language ]
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Thank you.
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[ Applause ]
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>> Gutsi Putu Sudarta: I'm going to talk today about the story of Sutasoma and the place and describe [inaudible] who played the story through his poetry. During the [inaudible] in the central Balinese kingdom of [inaudible], Sutasoma is believed to be the grandson of [inaudible]. The last king mentioned in the Hindu Mahabharata epic. The story combines elements of Hinduism and Buddhism and Sutasoma himself is thought to be the [inaudible]. The supreme Buddha in the [inaudible] tradition.

Today the story is well-known in Bali especially in the village of [inaudible] with its history of Buddhists priests. And among the flowers [inaudible] that combines Hundi, Buddhists, and Muslim elements. [Inaudible] in this story [inaudible] or Balinese religion. As this thing from Indian tradition because it combines many different beliefs and for most religious pluralism. The story of Sumasota begins with Purusada, an honorable king who enjoys hunting [inaudible]. This is Purusada. Purusada enjoyed eating the animals he hunted and one day of his assistants accidentally cut his finger while cooking the animal he cut bleeding into the food. [Inaudible] found this meal the most delicious and it awoke in him an animal nature that grew --
>> Andy McGraw: Ferociously. So the assistant cut his own fingers. Not [inaudible].

>> Gusti Puti Sudarta: He became addicted to the taste of human flesh and begin to become a cruel ruler enforcing corporal punishment to feed his habit. Slowly he became [inaudible], an ogre. One day, [inaudible] endured himself in [inaudible] so he asked for help from [inaudible] the god of time and death. Kali demanded the corpses of 100 kings in [inaudible] and so [inaudible] begin to wage war across the country in the form of the [inaudible] ogre, [inaudible]. [Inaudible] like that.
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[ Laughter ]
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Eventually Kali demanded Sutasoma, the king of the [inaudible] as a sacrifice as well. [Inaudible] as you know is very handsome king like that. [Inaudible].
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[ Singing ]
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Very handsome and very fine character. So Sutasoma's brother-in-law Dasabahu, this character Dasabahu. [Inaudible]. Dasabahu was given a bone by Lord Brahma and Purusada was given a bone by Lord [inaudible], a manifestation of Shiva. Because they were both very powerful, they were destroy the environment. It looked like a nuclear wasteland. Eventually Purusada defeated Dasabahu. When Sutasoma came out of the court to face Prusada, all of the flowers begin to bloom again. The aura of the Buddha brought the land back to life. When Purusada saw this he suddenly became aware of what he had become and asked, "Why have I done this? Why have I become [inaudible]?" Purusada begged Sutasoma for forgiveness and asked to become his disciple. But Sutasoma first offered himself a sacrifice to [inaudible] who became an innermost dragon in [inaudible] and swallow him.
[Inaudible] already transformed to be the giant dragon.
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[ Growling ]
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Just as he swallowed Sutasoma's feet [inaudible] that time cannot eat Suma because it's the Buddha. It transcends time itself and so like Purusada and [inaudible] begged for forgiveness and asked to become his disciple. The story of Sutasoma includes very important poem called the [inaudible] structures [inaudible].
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[ Singing ]
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>> Andy McGraw: This is a very creative translation here. It's said that there are two truths. One known as Buddha and one as Shiva.
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[ Singing ]
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And they appear different but in fact spiritual truth cannot be split in two.
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[ Singing ]
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Truly the essence of Buddhism and Shivaism are one. The deepest truth.
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[ Singing ]
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It's difference is only apparent. In diversity there is oneness. An essence that cannot be divided because it encompasses everything. 

>> Gutsi Putu Sudarta: In Bali this poem is often sung during the [inaudible]. It evokes a feeling of a beautiful blooming spring transition. Now this idea of religious pluralism, [inaudible] essential oneness has in my opinion, a very strong moral ethics and it relates to [inaudible] political and historical context. 

[Inaudible] outside the court during the rule of [inaudible] whose prime minister [inaudible] wanted to expand the [inaudible] empire through military expedition. [Inaudible] didn't agree with this military state approach. He thought that [inaudible] could expand through hearts and minds, through diplomacy rather than force. He believed that force would only lead to problems and temporary [inaudible]. And this is exactly what happened in [inaudible] military expedition in Bali in [inaudible]. [Inaudible] thought that religious tolerancy and pluralism was an essential part of diplomacy. He followed the Buddhist tradition but was open to the Shiva teachings. [Inaudible] himself was Hindu while [inaudible] was Buddhist with some Chinese ancestry. The eventual collapse of the [inaudible] empire in the 15th century was partly due to the religious tension between the Hindu rulers [inaudible] and his Muslim son [inaudible]. Indonesia independence. [Inaudible] Indonesia [inaudible] incorporates many concepts from the Sutasoma story in developing the nation's philosophy.

This is clearly seen in the [inaudible] principles,  [inaudible] first expressed by [inaudible] in 1945, [inaudible] believed in one God. [Inaudible]. A unified Indonesia. [Inaudible], democracy, and [inaudible] social justice. These five principles are displayed under the national motto of [inaudible] united in diversity. The relationship between the [inaudible] and bravery expressed in Sutasoma is symbolized in the Indonesian flag. The white symbolizing [inaudible] position symbolize [inaudible]. If you have a [inaudible] you can avoid the need for violence. [Inaudible] without [inaudible] creates confusion. Religious pluralism. 

Adopting the principles of religious tolerancy and pluralism from Sutasoma was a strategic move for [inaudible] who was attempting to unite the inhabitants of [inaudible] Islands representing hundreds of ethnicities, language, and culture in a single new nation. But a spirit of [inaudible] tolerancy was already present in many of these cultures. My father who lived from 1917 and 2004 was a traditional healer, village priest, and a [inaudible]. In his personal library, he had many traditional Balinese Hindu and Buddhist parliament manuscripts, Christian text, [inaudible] text, Islamic texts including the Javanese written by [inaudible], and writings by [inaudible]. His attitude wasn't dogmatic or fanatical. If he thought a text or tradition includes valuable teachings he would adopt them.
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He would say [inaudible].
>>  Andy McGraw: Which we didn't translate. That means it's got great stuff in it.
>> Gutsi Putu Sudarta: I do not think he was unusual for his generation. I know of many other Balinese who read a similar combination of texts from several religious traditions. In fact, in Bali there is a strong tradition of religious pluralism in connection between Hindu and Muslim communities. For Islam in the village of [inaudible].
>> Andy McGraw: Yes. There's a good example that Pat Gutsi found and he posted it on Facebook. So we'll see if we can -- yes. This was just posted a couple of days ago. And you'll see the Muslim performing the [inaudible] and the Balinese Hindu Temple performing. I don't know. But here's a short example.
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[ Music ]
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I really don't like American Facebook, but I love Indonesian Facebook. And I just noticed this. This is just posted but you've got people commenting over here. [Inaudible]. I mean these lines are right out of Sutasoma.

>> Gutsi Putu Sudarta: Yes. There is an Islamic neighborhood that participates in the temple ceremony of their Hindu neighbors. The Muslims often perform their [inaudible] in the Hindu temple ceremonies. And the Hindu's bring a frame to the Islamic community on the holy days. Being careful to avoid pork. Similar interaction also occurred in Java in the of [inaudible]. The Muslims prepared drinks and refreshments for the Hindus during their temple procession. [Inaudible]. Well, I believe [inaudible] is a [inaudible] philosophical basis for the nation. It's begin to become [inaudible] and [inaudible] and the so called [inaudible] and the [inaudible] and in '98. During this time, [inaudible] became [inaudible] school system and [inaudible] became required for all [inaudible].
Important [inaudible] against militarized diplomacy also seemed to be forgotten. This was seen [inaudible] military [inaudible] which eventually gained independence from Indonesia in 1999 after considerable violence.  Following the [Inaudible] in 1998, there has been an increasing radicalism in politics and religions, and it is in this context and [inaudible] for inspiration for my creative work. While Sutasoma was perform within traditional [inaudible], it fell out of favor in the early 1980. It was considered too hippy today.
>> Andy McGraw: Heavy.
>> Gutsi Putu Sudarta: Hippy. [Inaudible] in Bali use symbol narratives today with extensive comic and [inaudible]. I think this [inaudible] traditional performance provides the audience with entertainment in some [inaudible] to take home with them and think of [inaudible]. As my father used to say, a poor man [inaudible]. What is it you can take home you cannot take home a puppeteer, fancy techniques or beautiful voice, but you can take home his philosophicalism. 

In a way stories like Sutasoma [inaudible] in which there is the bit about the marriage and commonalities of different [inaudible] teaching. We learn how to think on our own. To make our own personal relationship of [inaudible] but [inaudible] is open [inaudible] with ethnicity and [inaudible] political power. There is also an increasing fundamentalist tendency towards [inaudible] pure [inaudible] teachings either in Arabic Islam or [inaudible]. [Inaudible] of the unique Indonesian adaptation of those tradition. I worry that there are [inaudible] political [inaudible], the unique philosophical basis of the nation. They have gotten the kingdoms like [inaudible] was manipulated in setting power and wealth. The closer of two power you get, the more [inaudible] and dogmatic composition about religion become as in Jakarta today. [Inaudible]. This is the situation that inspired my experiential theater work, [inaudible] which I originally composed for my master thesis with studying at the Institute of the Art in [inaudible]. I have seen revised and perform the works [inaudible]. My idea was to imagine [inaudible] and the condition that inspired him to set the story of Sutasoma. My regiment includes element of Balinese and Javanese Hindu, Buddhist, and Islamic music and instruments. I use Balinese [inaudible] and [inaudible] used by Muslim communities in Bali. I also used the [inaudible] that Indonesian Muslim use for the call to prayer in the mosque. Some of my [inaudible] critique this approach and accommodate that I erase the Muslim aspect of the music but I think they missed the point. Audience enthusiastically accepted this [inaudible]. The focal of [inaudible] I use is to create a setting of poetry from the [inaudible], but using Muslim instruments from Indonesia in the focus style influenced by Pakistani [inaudible] Muslim [inaudible] music.
>> Andy McGraw: Give me a minute while I try to do this. 
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[ Music ]
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So there is the [inaudible] in the back [inaudible] tradition [inaudible]. [Inaudible] these guys are from [inaudible]. These guys are Hindu.
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[ Music ]
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>>  Gutsi Putu Sudarta: The piece combines extreme [inaudible] and mask dancing. The [inaudible] was performed using two [inaudible] for the performance including a [inaudible] as the source of the flowering [inaudible] of world religion.

>> Andy McGraw: So yes, there was an innovative -- obviously this is innovative. There's several screens. There are dancers, but there are also new puppets that were made. And so, this puppet includes an image of [inaudible], the ultimate deity. You'll notice the symbols around it.
There's many complaints about the videography.
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>> Gutsi Putu Sudarta: Near the end of the performance, important [inaudible] by practicing your [inaudible], he is vilified. He is visited by the character's [inaudible] in Bali, a court jester who is actually a wise god. An incarnation of Shiva who helps to guide humans throughout their dharma. [Inaudible] important to compose and arrange the story of Sutasoma to help deliver the nation from disaster.
>> Andy McGraw: And this will be the last example -- I need to find it here. 
Then we can open it up for questions. It doesn't preview. Okay. Bear with me for a minute.[Inaudible].
And that's your niece?
>> Gutsi Putu Sudarta:  Yes.
>> Andy McGraw: Okay. Let's see if it's in this one. Divided up the files strangely when we loaded it on the PC.

So here is [inaudible] in Bali. The [inaudible] version is called [inaudible] who appears to be a court jester just kind of a funky guy not very refined but in fact he's an incarnation of Shiva to help from below kind of guide people to the proper dharma. And he appears in the show to help [inaudible] set and express Sutasoma. 

So now there's a kind of theatrical transition in which Gutsi appears now as [inaudible] but in the mask dance version who then has the interaction with Tantula now represented as a shadow puppet. 
And this music we're not discussing this today, but this music is quite [inaudible] as well.
Okay. We'll end it there. Thank you very much and if you have questions for Pat Gutsi.
>> I have a question. So Bali is this tiny island in a Muslim nation of that has 1700 islands and is pretty much the largest Muslim country in the world or maybe the second largest. And since the 1990s we have these tensions, these religious tensions globally, and you only have to think of [inaudible] right now. So I'm wondering Bali has this unique fusion of Hinduism, Buddhism, and what's the other one?
Islam of course. And Islam is a dominant religion and sort of Muslim. Bali is this tiny island surrounded by this huge Muslim country. So to what extent are your wonderful traditions threated by the current political events? To what extent are there tensions within Indonesia that threaten the continuation of your tradition?
No. It's not this feeling of threat. Not yet.
>> Andy McGraw: Well, I'll just add one thing. I've never really been able to wrap my head around the description of Indonesia which you often hear is the world's largest or most populous Muslim nation. So much is left out of that description it's kind of like saying America has the most Americans of any country. There is different kinds of Islam in Indonesia and a lot of it, especially in central Java is very [inaudible], and obviously it's weird for me to talk about this because it's offending the audience. So it's a very localized form of Hinduism. I've been in mosques in central Java that have painted around the interior the story of the [inaudible]. The [inaudible], the shadow puppeteers in central Java --
>> Muslim.
>> -- most of them are Hindu and most of their audience is Muslim. So it's a very complicated scene and a lot of -- even though there are problems of terminology in Bali, there are many Balinese with names like Madai which is a [inaudible] -- it's a form of birth order naming in Bali. They'll have a name like Madai Mohammed because they're Islamic and maybe they have some [inaudible] ancestry but they've been there for hundreds and hundreds of years and they have these long-standing pretty positive relationships with their neighbors of different faiths. So I think there was a sense of threat after the bombing in 2002 in Bali because it was a fundamentalism [inaudible] in Kuta. 
But nothing - I was there at the time and there wasn't violence against Muslims that I saw. Thank you.
>> I [inaudible] because Islam is the dominant [inaudible] more Islamic than any other religion. [Inaudible] that's where they have those kind of [inaudible] and they show it in the building address and everything. It look more like [inaudible]Islam [inaudible].  I can [inaudible] I see all the manuscripts which are [inaudible] collections and [inaudible] language and they [inaudible] Islamic [inaudible]but maybe that's what it is [inaudible].
>> Isn't Hinduism pretty unique to Indonesia just focusing on Bali?
>> Andy McGraw: Well, it's multiple waves, and it was never through - there doesn't seem to be a lot of historical evidence for strong armed prelatizing before the Dutch arrived as a colonial power. But I mean since probably before the 5th century there's been Hindu influence, of course, [inaudible] all these issues with naming and colonial naming and religious practices. But there's also quite an [inaudible] tradition throughout that area. So this summer I was sitting in a village called [inaudible] which is [inaudible] village or sometimes incorrectly described as pre-Hindu village [inaudible]. But it's more around would you call it certain sects. So that village is an Indra sect. So and they identify with Indra but they have a lot of what appear to be Austronesian or even kind of Polynesian or Hawaiian type cultural practices there and [inaudible] in these kinds of temples. And I think - it partly had to do with the Dutch coming from that direction and that conditioned a view of their place like Bali. Had they come from Hawaii first, they might have seen a lot more Austronesian or Polynesian practice in a lot of this. But it's very [inaudible]. It's very mixed and I think what Pat Gutsi is responding with a critical eye against is this eye looking out for a so-called pure versions through which to correct or improve what has proven over time to be a quite resilient form of religious practice in Bali. Am I putting words in your mouth [inaudible]? Elizabeth.
>> Yes. So thank you. It was wonderful. So this is really awe-inspiring in the way that the [inaudible] ideals are really elevated through the interfaith diversity mixture that this is showing. And in some ways it's so impressive because the traditions are so strong. So that in the - in one sense, the [inaudible] is always evolving and traditions are always evolving and melding with one another, but in another way you kind of need some traditional form and order for something like this to be so kind of so well. So I'm wondering if you can talk about the experimental [inaudible] as a separate genre versus kind of the slow evolution of practices. 
>> Gutsi Putu Sudarta: The new creation of [inaudible] in Bali today. They say the basic, the roots from the [inaudible] shadow puppet performance like that. And we bring [inaudible] context with the new idea and new element and new [inaudible] also like that, and we [inaudible] to be the new [inaudible].
>> So every generation - because every generation thought along those lines or can you define this as kind of a new thing that's happening?
>> If I -
>> We can say that in the shadow puppet tradition, they help also like new creation in the context of frame tradition, but the other side if there are new experimental creation like that. For example, when I collaboration with my friend in [inaudible] doing the new performance, [inaudible], this is very good. The new element like the video graphics like [inaudible] and many things new [inaudible], but I think the most important is how I keep the [inaudible] of my tradition and I bring to the [inaudible] the most important sense of tradition.

>> Andy McGraw: Yes we were talking on the drive up here. There's a major new shadow puppet collection from Germany that's just been donated to Yale. And a friend of ours is up there and going through and posting all these pictures. And there was this picture of how they put the box together, and there was like a spring in there. It looked like it was from the 30s or 40s, and there was a spring in there and I thought what is this? How they were putting it all together, and he was explaining oh the way we hid the box now and the way we put it all together, that just emerged four years ago. And there are these new kind of [inaudible] techniques. And for me, I mean, this is part of my experience as an American everything is tradition and ancient and wonderful and beautiful, and I'm constantly having this like oh that's brand new. That's okay. And reminding myself that's okay. That's still totally valid. I think part of the difference here is that new technology is available, the projection, and they're available everywhere. And at this point, they're available everywhere more or less at the same time. So you get experiments in California and Australia and Bali with shadows and projections and graphics at almost the same time.
>> I think you also look at it as a form of theater. It's different than the form of theater we're accustomed to. Our theater is not [inaudible] so why would you expect theirs to [inaudible]?
>> Andy McGraw: Right. Other questions?
>> I think the way I see it is that in Bali the tradition is so old and everybody, all the Balinese, the Hindu Balinese are practicing it every hour of the day. So when they wake up, they have all the tradition to give to whoever it is. They have what do you call them, they have offering everywhere. So the tradition is very strong. And so that's why nobody - you know, you have so many tourists and whatever, but it's very strong so nobody can touch it. And when they dance and [inaudible] and everything it's all to God. It's all for their God. You know, it's not for the people. It's for God. And so, everything is for God, and it's very [inaudible]. And they practice every day, every minute, every hour. It's the practice is very - I mean it's - so nobody can touch it and everybody leave them alone. Is that correct?
Yes. But you go there, you see all the offering everywhere, and [inaudible]. You know like the one [inaudible] the priest went up to see what's going on.
>> Even though it's about to explode. Yes.
>> In spite of the technology and everything, he wasn't afraid to go up because he wanted to do his own thing according to his religion. So that's how I see it. I don't know whether I'm correct or not.
>> What I'm always fascinated with is this - yes, there's a lot of [inaudible]. There's a lot of just doing of the religions. The making of the offerings and the praying, the temple ceremonies it's every exhausting. And yet, I'm always meeting people that - a cab driver on the way to the airport after research this summer was from this traditional village where I was sitting, but he was really getting into this new Buddhist text that was coming out of being published in China. It was kind of being introduced into Indonesia, and he wanted to ask me about had I ever been to a charismatic Christian service and what's that like? I mean, my experience as an American is you're kind of totally assimilated and there's not a lot of critical thought or you reject it all and you're completely idiosyncratic and you don't even have a [inaudible]. And to find people that are part of very structured communities and yet have a real critical eye and they're saying it's almost like they're in a buffet. 

I'll take a little bit of this and a little bit of that. And maybe 10 years later, I'm going to be a different person and I would have learned other things.
And I'll evolve as a spiritual being even though I'm still doing these things within a particular community. And for me as an American that's so unique and different and I kind of have this hang up and jealousy.
>> If we had that on a global level, we would be in a different state.
>> Yes. Any other questions? Great. Let's give Pat Gutsi a -
>> Thank you.
>> This has been a presentation of the Library of Congress. Visit us at loc.gov.