>> From the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C.
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>> Guha Shankar: Today, it's December 20th. We are recording this interview with Dr. Lotsee Patterson, enrolled member of the Comanche Nation of Oklahoma, emerita professor at the University of Oklahoma, founder of the American Indian Library Association. We are here in the Jefferson Studios at the Library of Congress. I'm Guha Shankar, Program Specialist at the Center and I'm here with --

>> Judith Gray: Judith Gray, Head of Reference for the Folklife Center.

>> Guha Shankar: So, thank you very much, Dr. Patterson, for being with us. It's a real honor and a privilege to have you here, and great seeing you again.

 >> Dr. Lotsee Paterson: Thank you.

>> Guha Shankar: Okay. Well, we're going to go into some details of your career and your involvement with libraries and providing services for Native American people here in the United States and your reach, which is vast and wide. Just for the record, I would note that you are a graduate of the Oklahoma College for Women in 1959. You have earned your Master's Degree in Library Science and Doctorate Degree in Educational Technology from the University of Oklahoma. You are a professor emeritus of the Library and Information Studies at OU and you taught there for 17 years. Awards are too numerous to mention so we'll merely append a PDF of all of the lengthy list of your accomplishments in the interview transcript at some point, when we get that up.

 >> Dr. Lotsee Paterson: Thank you.

>> Guha Shankar: But a long and distinguished career, to be sure. And again, it's a real honor and a privilege to have you here. Maybe we might begin by asking you some biographical details as to where you were born, some details about your childhood growing up in Apache, Oklahoma. Then, we can move into other areas and talk about your career, if that's okay with you.

 >> Dr. Lotsee Paterson: Well, where I was born and raised really accounts for my career and why I went into Library Services focusing on American Indians. I was born 1931 -- I'm very old -- December the third, 1931. So, I grew up in an allotment in Oklahoma -- we don't have reservations, so we had little squares of land -- way out in the country, in 1931, height of the Depression, then the Dust Bowl, then World War II. And so, all those things were dramatic, emotional, hard times. But my mother was a college graduate so I always had things to read at my home. Books. She ordered books from the state library. I think that's so remarkable. In 1930s, they'd come by mail. So, I always had books. The schools did not have books. Most of my neighbors didn't have books. So, I guess I grew up loving to read. When I started teaching some years later in a little rural school with Indian students, 90% of them were Indian, I realized they had nothing in their homes to read. Nothing. No newspapers, magazines. Nothing. And I thought of, I'd describe it as being a little flame that started and that kept burning and smoldering, and I kept trying at that point, even wanting to do something about it. Skip years later, my life has been a kind of series of not being planned but things just happened. And after, I had five kids and I got a divorce. And I had needed a better job than that little rural school. So, I went to a nearby Bureau of Indian Affairs School, it was a high school, where we had a nice library. But the kids there had grown up in the heart of the Reservation, on Navajo and Dakotas, and they too, you know, had no libraries. But I worked in the library while I was there for an hour or two a day. And the government, because BI schools are 12 months a year, they have to something with the teachers in the summer, so they sent me to library school. Little did they know I would never come back. But then I got a fellowship and I cannot give credit enough credit to federal programs that offer scholarships, fellowships for students. I would've never been able to get a degree. So, I got a fellowship, got my Master's Degree, and since you could take all the courses you wanted for the same tuition because grant was paying, scholarship was paying for it, I took 45 hours on a Master's program. I crammed it all in. And I intended to go back to the BI school but I realized, with five little kids to take care of, it was really hard to work the hours and so forth. So, skipping forward, I went to down college of ed, got an assistantship, I guess, and got my Ph.D. In library school, the Department of Interior librarian had come and given a guest lecture. I mean, all these things are accidents. You can't plan them.

>> Guha Shankar: So, this was all at the University of Oklahoma?

 >> Dr. Lotsee Paterson: University of Oklahoma. Right. So, I really kind of just think things happen to me and, oh, you know? But then I followed. But he came to give a lecture and I talked to him afterwards about my concern about school libraries in BI schools. That one little short conversation -- after finishing my Ph.D., I got a call from the University of Mexico offering me a faculty position. And that Department of Interior librarian had talked to them. They had said, "Do you know anybody who's American Indian?" It's the days when they really wanted minority people. Anyway, that led to my job at the University of Mexico. When I got out there, I decided that I would try to do something with the Indian schools out there. So, I learned all of the grants that the government has and I began to look for grants and found, the title to be, Higher Education Act: Research and Demonstration. So I wrote a grant to work with the schools. I had a hidden agenda; I often do. The grant was for training, and -- or, I mean, research and demonstration. But I secretly wanted to start schools in the libraries, libraries in the schools. And so I did, and got the grant, started with some schools. While I had just started and I began to get, we call it the Moccasin Grape Fund, where word spreads. There are 19 pueblos in New Mexico and two Apache tribes in the Navajo. So, they heard about me and what I was doing and began to reach out to me, the tribal people did. "Would you help us get a library in the pueblo?" "Well, of course!" One of my, sort of, philosophies is never say no to something that's a good cause.

>> Guha Shankar: What years are you talking about?

 >> Dr. Lotsee Paterson: I started out there in 1972. So, my first grant was 1973. So, for the following four or five years I had federal grants to work with the pueblos and helping them with library services. I started libraries from nothing: you know, in hallways, in food co-ops, in offices. Because another one of my philosophies is you can start a library anywhere. And I get so irked when people say, "Well, we don't have money." I don't care if you don't have money. Do it anyway! And that's kind of the way I started. And they began to build and grow. And the pueblo people really wanted them because, as they have said to me, "We now realize --" and they are much more culturally pure than Oklahoma in terms of not integrating because they're in these remote reservations where they are among their own people 24/7. Not true in Oklahoma. So I discovered, in talking to them, one of them said to me, "We can no longer live the way we have been doing. We must get our children educated." And they saw the library as a way to get them educated. And they said to me, "You cannot -- our children are bused 50 miles away to school. They get on the bus and go home. They have no libraries to go to. So, we want a library. They can go after school, they can study, they can do their homework." Anyway, that's sort of a little synopsis of, kind of, the nutshell. But they wanted them, that was the thing. And I always went to them, said, "Do you want a library?" and let them tell me what they wanted. And I got the most interesting -- you know, because I hired people to help teach and they had the typical librarian mindset of "Okay, we'll buy this reference book and that." No, no, no. You ask them what they want. I got answers like, "We want the state statutes and state codes because we don't want to have to go ask people, 'What does it say?' We want to know for ourselves. We want things for our children to do their homework." I forget. And, of course, anything about their tribe or their pueblo. First, their pueblo, and then Indians in general, they wanted in their library. But they did have constraints about some materials, some well-known authors who were not Indian who had written books about them: they didn't want those books in those libraries
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for obvious reasons. They were not truthful, they were misleading, and many times, derogatory, or if they had put things in there that had to do with their religion, or certain things that shouldn't be told a certain time of the year. And it was kind of interesting, really, because it was a federal grant, and the federal attitude is, "We cannot restrict." So, I actually got an opinion from the Department of Ed's solicitor: "Yes, you can." And so that turned out to be kind of an interesting thing. But the libraries took hold, and they grew, and I had a certain philosophy that I would provide the training -- not salaries. I would not hire anybody because I knew, if I hired them, when the grant was gone, they were gone. 

>> Guha Shankar: So, let me ask you a little bit about the training part of it.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Yeah.

>> Guha Shankar: So, obviously facilities and building the library is one thing, but I'm just -- I really would like to know -- when you started out, what was the level of, you know, professional training or development available for Native people who wanted [inaudible] --

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Well, these were reservations way out from the middle of nowhere. And I also knew that you better do it their way or you're not going to be successful. We had professors thrown off of reservations because they came in wanting to tell them what to do. So, we took -- I said to the tribal leadership, "You choose the person you want me to train, and I will train them." And then I relied on that person to ask the tribe for some money to get, like, reference books and you know, build the collection. I had some money I could build basic, you know, I could buy some basic tools. But anyway, it's really -- it just came together and it grew, but part of the success of that was letting them choose who they wanted me to train, many times an older person. And I've learned that that's good because younger ones want to work just so long enough to find another job where it's better. The older ones were vested in the community, they knew the culture, they knew the morays. And so, I, you know, that was an element of success. But that, because it was so successful in New Mexico, many other places copied, I guess is the right word, my proposals and got them funded in the Dakotas, so it really carried much further than New Mexico. And of course, the federal agency really liked that because, so their money was doing good things. But the tribes came -- they would keep hiring this person, even after I was through training. They had enough basic training they could operate the library. And I tried to work with the state library, and that's very difficult. Some states will have nothing to do with the tribes because they're federal responsibility, and the states say, "We have no obligation to the tribes." It just varies among the states, but I worked on those in New Mexico, and they were, "Well, they can come to our training programs" and so, just many little pieces have to fit together, but you have to start with letting the Native people tell you what they want. Many things have not been successful because people didn't know how to approach that. Well, it was so successful, and then there was the White House conferences, which librarians know about. We got an Indian delegation; Department of Interior funded, helped fund a Indian pre-conference, so we got resolutions and so forth, so we got that fed into the National Conference, and after the National Conference -- White House Conference -- in Rothburys [phonetic] --   

>> Guha Shankar: I'm sorry, Dr. Lotsee, when would that --

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Seventy-nine was the first one. 

>> Guha Shankar: Okay.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: 1979. But I want to credit the National Commission on Libraries and Information Science. They no longer exist, but for a number of years, they were a federally -- a presidentially-appointed commission, and their mission was to tell the president and Congress what the needs for libraries was nationwide. And that made a huge difference. The associate director of the commission, Mary Alice Hedge-Reszetar, had been a congressional staffer, so she knew how to do the legislative thing, so after the White House Conference, she went to Paul Simon, the congressman of Illinois, and said, "Look, here's some resolutions; we haven't done anything about these." That was all it took. He called me in, I worked with his staff, I drafted the legislation. You know, like I -- today. I said, "Here's what I know the needs to be, and here's what the resolutions say." So, we wrote -- I drafted the legislation, they put their stuff, you know, their lingo into it, and Simon successfully got it through Congress. 

>> Guha Shankar: So, can you tell us a little bit about what's in the legislation, just as a sort of --

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Well, it basically gave them some funds. Not a small amount, but that's really all it took. They could match it with some tribal funds, and then they -- and the salaries that the librarians were abominably low, but if you're 50 miles from anywhere, any salary is welcome. So, that happened, and when that was enacted and passed into law and -- Reagan signed it. Reagan signed the law -- the U.S. Department of Ed said, "Wait a minute. We don't know anything about Indians." You know. "What are we going to do?" And so they issued an RFP -- I find the federal government does that, agencies do that a lot. If they don't know anything, they do an RFP. So, I successfully got a contract to provide technical assistance and training all throughout the country, including Alaska, to these places who had never had this money, they didn't know what to do, they didn't know nothing about libraries, so I went to states and areas and held workshops to write their grants, and I did a core collection for them. One of my problems with places that start libraries and don't know what they're doing is what they buy and what they purchase, because they go to a local bookstore and "That cover looks good" and "that cover looks good." So, I tried to do some quality basic stuff, and that was well. Then, I negotiated with a vendor, or multiple vendors: "Okay, what discount are you going to give them if they buy through you?" And they had never done that. They don't know how to do that. So, just typical library stuff. That was funded for a year. The Department of Ed couldn't fund things more than one year, but they said, "I promise you, we'll do it for three years." "Okay." During the first year, we got a presidential -- new president. He appointed new, was going to appoint a new person head of Department of Ed, who said to me -- I can remember, it's like when Kennedy was shot and you remember exactly where you were. I remember exactly where I was when that woman came up to me and said -- it was in the Palmer House, in front of the elevators. She said, "Oh, by the way" -- she wasn't even in office yet -- "I am not going to fund your --" I call it TRAILS Program. "I'm not going to fund it because --" I said, "Why? You don't even know what we're doing." "Well, I have five years to make a name for myself, and it's not going to be with Indians." 

>> Guha Shankar: Whoa.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: You know what I thought? "Where is Bob Woodward when you need him?" But, she did -- I mean, she got in office and she cut the funding for that, and -- but there's a happy end to that story too. 

>> Guha Shankar: But tell us about the TRAILS Program, if you would. What does that stand for? TRAILS?

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: TRAILS is the acronym, is Training, T-R, and Assistance, A, for Indian Library Services. And it's still talked about, and I still hear testimony every now and then, "We need TRAILS." I had an 800 number, so they could call, ask anything, I manned it 12 hours a day. And we got -- mostly what they wanted was basic information. You know, "How do weA" and they still need that, even today. And I hear people saying, "We need TRAILS back," you know, "We need our TRAILS." And I'm working on that. I'm working on that. But it has been enormously successful, and I'm extremely happy that we have libraries on reservations where there were none. Hundreds and thousands of Indian kids have been able to go to a library. One other happy note I'll insert is when the Gates Foundation made an announcement that they were going to -- 
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you know, they have different focuses. They were going to focus on small public libraries for their grants. Ah! So, I call Gates Foundation. I said, "Don't forget tribal libraries." And they respond, "Oh, they're part of the state libraries and, you know, we'll do --" "No, no, no. No, they're not." "Well, how do we know where they are if they're not on the list of the state?" "Oh, I'll be happy to send you a list. Names, addresses, and phone numbers." And sure enough, that took root. And then it was like Columbus discovered America. Gates discovered tribal libraries. That's okay, I don't care. But what they did was put computers in those tribal libraries, sent trainers down to train them how to use the computers. So, I want to give Gates credit too for their -- you know, that only lasted a few years, but it's wonderful. 

>> Guha Shankar: And when would that have been, Lotsee?

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: When? 
>> Guha Shankar: Mm-hmm.
>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: I can't remember. Must have been in the '80s. 

>> Guha Shankar: Okay.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: And you know, they only fund things for a while, but those computers that Gates funded and put out in those libraries, many of them are still there. I had one, or probably more librarians that actually never learned how to use the computer, but they've moved on, and the younger ones have taken to it. And now, when I go out to Indian country, and I go to those libraries, I say computers have leveled the playing field. Now, those people 50 miles from anywhere can have the same access to information that they have in downtown Albuquerque. It's absolutely been such a boon, and it's bringing people in, because the people in the -- I'm talking mostly about the Pueblos, but this is true in Indian country in general: they do not have access to the Internet. Even if they do, they couldn't pay for it. They don't have computers. So, they can go to their tribal library and use the computer. And they do. And it's brought people into the libraries that would have never been in there before. 

>> Judith Gray: So, this was all prior to your actually being at University of Oklahoma in the library school, yes?

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Well, yes, but I continued, as I still do, to try to do what I can. I still get calls from people asking for help. Now I get calls about "Which software automation, library automation software should we buy?" I have to, you know, I have to -- I never say no. So, I try to find somebody in their state that can give them assistance or information, and I'll give them what they have. I mostly -- you know, library journals, some might publish just once a year, the library software companies, so I'll provide them information. I never promote one company over another. But there's still many things that can be done. 

>> Judith Gray: Well, I know that you are funding, as well, a scholarship for Native students wanting to go to library school.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: That's right. That's what I did at the university level, is I write grants to get fellowships and recruited American Indians to library school. And I'm so happy, I had -- two of the seven Montana tribal colleges were my graduates, in Fort Peck, and Blackfeet. Yeah, I call myself the mother of tribal libraries. And like any good mother -- I do have some Jewish blood too, I must tell you. My DNA says I do. So, I compare myself to a Jewish grandmother who says, "This [inaudible] help these libraries." And I never miss an opportunity to try to put things together. I'm a connector, I'm a networker, and sometimes, just little things pay off well. 

>> Judith Gray: Both TRAILS and then ATALM, though, had University of Oklahoma connections, Associations for Tribal Archives Libraries and Museums.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Yeah.

>> Judith Gray: So did you help bridge that as well?

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Not directly. The Department of Ed -- there was some restructuring and I forget when it happened, but they took the tribal library money out of Department of Ed and they formed, I think it was a -- when they rewrite the legislation, and they formed this IMLS, Institute for Library and Museum Services, and they moved that money over to IMLS, who's administered, for some years now. And so, it's under their -- and they have -- somebody asked me why I didn't do this in, you know, the legislation. I said, "It's very hard to get a new piece of legislation." And Mary Alice Reszetar, National Commission, very clever: "We're not going to make new legislation; we're going to take a title under another act that has been named but never funded. So, we're going to take that title and rename it Library Services for American Indians, but we'll tie the funding for that to these others that are funded and it has to be percent of the funding that you give to those." Very clever move, because now they could not leave the tribal library title out. And this is the money that goes to state libraries, and the, we knew when that happened, it was passed, the state libraries are going to be very unhappy because they had always had flow-through money, and Mary Alice, again, said, "No, we're not going to do flow-through money with this because the states have not worked with their tribal libraries, many of them. So, we're going to direct Washington to the tribe." That was a first. And so, Mary Alice is responsible for that, and again, they don't have the staffing that can provide the direct technical assistance and training, and it's usually very basic things, like what library automation system should we use? Where can we get trained for that? They don't know about buying from vendors, you can get a 20% discount. They don't know -- they don't have access to reviewing tools. And, you know, I wouldn't say Google or Amazon, that's not a reviewing tool. But they think it is. So, I still see many issues that I'm concerned about: the quality of the material they're buying, continuing training, and of course, always there's the basic question of funding. IMLS just announced this fall that they were going to up the basic grants up to $10,000 a year. So, that means, these libraries have, you know, that's a basic they can count on. That's enough to enable them to continue to operate. They have trouble -- I was in Jemez this spring, this fall, and visited them, and they were -- their lights were going to be shut off, you know, and I took some people with me, and I said to them, "We're going to make a donation before you leave this room. We are going to make a donation to this library." And we got just enough to pay their light bill and get the, kept the lights on. So, I work in nefarious ways. But always for a good cause. 

>> Guha Shankar: So that's a kind of a very, you know, drastic aspect of what's happening with libraries, which are about literally to have their lights shut off, but is there a spectrum of those kinds of libraries, ranging from really impoverished to very, very well-endowed, or?

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Yes, and the best tribal libraries you will find are in the tribal colleges, and most of them have MLS graduates, or they're going to school. So, they have really made a difference. The Dakotas -- Montana has seven tribes, and at least three of them have tribal colleges. Four have tribal colleges. So, they're in pretty good shape. But the other thing they need is networking. They need to be able to talk to one another. They need to know who they can call if they have a question that won't be intimidating. I have to tell you, many librarians are very intimidating. When you go into a library and they look down their nose at you, like "Are you stupid or what?" You know, I mean, now you can laugh, but I feel that way sometimes. You know, I've been in libraries where -- because they get tired of answering the same questions, like "Where's the restroom?" And, so -- 

>> Judith Gray: Here, too.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: But they -- with Indian people, they're so sensitive, not just to words, but to looks, to body language, to attitude, and they can be turned off like that and they will never come back. But I think, more and more, now that the Institute of Museum and Library Services is funding an annual conference to bring tribal librarians, archivists, and museum people together, and that's wonderful. And I know you've had representatives there. And it's wonderful because they meet you there, the tribal libraries and archivists do, and they're not, then, afraid to call you. And they're not intimidated to ask you what -- they don't want to ask a stupid question, because you won't -- they don't feel that way about you because they know you now, and that's very important. 

>> Guha Shankar: So, it seems to me this training that you're providing for Native librarians might also be applied to non-Native librarians.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Yeah. Well, I believe very much in the graduate degree for librarians, but I know it's unrealistic. And these people in the tribal settings know things that -- you can train a person with a Ph.D and they won't know some of the things these people know, that they need to be successful. And I've said, more than once, you can train

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a Native person to be a librarian,


but it's very hard to train a non-native to work in a tribal library, because there's so much culture behind everything they do and you know, people don't recognize, they don't realize it. I should give you a bibliography attached to this interview of some things I've written and express those feelings. 

>> Judith Gray: If I can move from that, you have graciously given us an interesting collection, which was a, sort of an annotated discography of Native American recordings. I'm wondering how that project came about.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Now, say that again, a little louder?

>> Judith Gray: Sure. You've given us this collection, this annotated discography of recordings.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Oh, yes, yes.

>> Judith Gray: And I was wondering how that, how did that come about?

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Well, because professors have to do research and publish, that's the truth. It's not that we want to; it's that we have to, to keep our job. And in fact, I've done that in my professional career, but at a research institution like University of Oklahoma, you have to publish and you have to do research, and I've always focused on the American Indian library stuff, and I've been told, "Don't do that because that won't get you, you know, what you need to be promoted," to which I've said, "Well, I'm going to do it anyway." And I've proceeded to do so, and I got tenure and I got full professor, so there. 

But I know what they meant. It was all, the places I've published have not been mainstream always, but it's my audience, it's the things they read, like Tribal College Journal. But anyway, that's, yeah. But in the context of my position, another colleague and I, she was a Ph.D music professor and we -- I always look for gaps in -- music is a big thing in the communities and people don't know this but certain songs belong to certain people. "They're my family's songs; you have no right to sing them unless I give you permission." And so, commercial recordings and, there are many complications with that. But she and I took a look at the field and there's two major producers of Indian music: Indian House in Taos, the other one's in Phoenix, I can't remember the name of.

>> Judith Gray: Canyon.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: What is it? 

>> Judith Gray: Canyon Records. 

>> Guha Shankar: Canyon Records.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Canyon, that's right. So I went to Canyon and I spent time in their facility in the University of Mexico and we took the, what do you call -- she was the music expert -- off the, all of the information off of the recordings and we put together a discography. There had been one up to like 1940-something of commercially produced Indian music. Though we just focused on the Southwest, but tried to put together a comprehensive list of everything that had been commercially produced from like 1956 I think to '94, that gap, that era. But my colleague, who had all the data on her computer, lost it. So I had one print copy, which I brought to you. That's how I met you, in fact. I brought, I think, I brought that manuscript. We had a book contract but we didn't fulfill it so I think it's yours. Do with as you wish, but it fills the gap of what was produced. We learned a lot in the process.

>> Judith Gray: Was she also at University of Oklahoma?

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Yes, yes. She was a temporary appointment but she was ill and before, you know, I was, and I went to Canada to be a visiting professor at the University of British Columbia during this era, so I was not there to say, "Give me a backup copy," and when I came back from Vancouver, she had gone and lost, she lost all the -- and that's a lesson in what not to do with computers. 

>> Guha Shankar: I wanted to follow up on something you just said, Lotsee, about some materials just aren't even meant to be heard by non-family members. That brings up the broader question of the Native American protocols, which were introduced about ten years ago, which was about how non-Native institutions ought to look after and caretake Native materials in their own collections. Can you talk about that a little bit and what your reaction to that set of protocols was?

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Well, actually I'm glad you mentioned that because a librarian at the Northern Arizona University put together a small group, I think 15 of us, to write some protocols. Not just for music, but for anything intellectual property that belonged to Indians, whether design or a song or a, you know, many elements of that, and now, so we put together a list of protocols and that's still available. There's a group now at the University of Oklahoma, the Sam Noble Museum, working on a project. And what they're doing is trying to go out to the Indian communities and get music that was recorded but not commercially. They're in closets and on, you know, Uncle John's back porch. And so, Oklahoma, University of Oklahoma, Sam Noble Museum is working on that right now. 

But the protocols are so interesting, and when you find people who have never worked with a Native group, they don't have a clue, and I think the broader term now being used is cultural expressions, which covers a lot. I mean, I've done some work in New Zealand with Maoris and they are really leading the charge with people taking their, even tattoos, the design, so hopefully we've created a lot of awareness and, you know, T-shirts that used to copy Indian designs. But you at L-C are kind of ahead of that right now; you're ahead of that.

>> Dr. Judith Gray: We're trying.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Well, it's a lot to keep up with. If nothing else but create awareness. Hey, you people out here in the street, you don't have a right to take that and put it on your T-shirt. It's insulting, for one thing; it's degrading. So, good luck to you all in your work. But there's many, many more facets to this whole thing, and I'm so happy that LC has you two.

>> Guha Shankar: Thank you.

>> Judith Gray: Thank you.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Because you understand.

>> Judith Gray: Right.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: You understand the issues and the problems. 

>> Guha Shankar: So, moving slightly in a different direction. Today, you came to the library and you met with our recently installed library, librarian of Congress and the national librarian, Dr. Carla Hayden. Can you talk a little bit -- not actually giving away any details of the meeting but how did you come to know Dr. Hayden and what's your association been over the years?

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Well, I've known Dr. Hayden for a number of years. We served on the ALA Committee for Accreditation, I think that was the '80s maybe, I don't remember. But our paths have crossed a number of times. She was on the IMLS board when I was on, but I've come to know and respect her and can't tell you how overjoyed I and many other librarians are to have her in this position. 

I met with her today briefly because I explained to her that when one of your own, and I consider her one of our own, achieves a high, makes a high achievement or high status, it's tradition in many Indian communities to gift them, to give them gifts. So I brought her a gift today. Happy to know she liked Indian jewelry, so I brought her something from Navajo. Comanches do beadwork and I see her more as a silver and turquoise person. But we talked briefly and very candidly about some needs in Indian country.

I didn't even have to bring up the subject; she broached the subject about what LC might do, so I've got some homework. I'm going to -- and I'll be calling on some other people, see what we can put together that can make use of the LC's vast resources. 

I'm a big one to put things together. I told you earlier, don't tell me you have to have money for it; just do it. So that's where I'm starting. I think we can look at various services and places here that might piggyback, cooperate, collaborate, and with IMLS too, I want to talk to them and maybe get a revived TRAILS project back. Something, an office where those many tribal librarians, I spent two weeks in Alaska in villages along the Bering Sea, which are Eskimo. The only way in and out is by plane, summer you can come by barge; I prefer not to do that. Even planes, which you look down on the ground, you see all these planes crashed down there and, "Oh well, okay, not today." But they have a great need up there and fortunately for them, the Alaska State Library tries to provide some services. So, I think Dr. Hayden understands the big picture and I'll be there to help her if she needs me. 
^M00:40:02
And so will you.
 
>> Judith Gray: We will try. Yes. 

>> Guha Shankar: So what, so in your assessment, what is -- you've mentioned a lot of different needs, infrastructure, and funding maybe not so much but --

>> Judith Gray: Training.

>> Guha Shankar: What is, yeah, in terms of training, what do you see as the next step for tribal librarians to take?

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Well, you know I'm not out there in contact with them daily but I can tell you generally what I think. They still need basic, basic skills. And, you know, like searching and reference questions, and purchasing quality materials, all that basic stuff that librarians learn. But what I hear at this national conference and what I see in talking -- I still keep my finger you know, attached with a number of them. Now they want to know, "How do I digitize my collection? How do I start that? Where do I go? Who can help me?" And I would say digitization is the number-one issue right now, even for those that are advanced. They have some materials about their own people they do not want shared. So they're very reluctant to do any kind of permanent, you know, even languages; you've probably faced this. There are some tribes that we do not want our language written because it's an oral language and it must be transmitted that way. They are so fearful, many of them are, that if they put it in writing or they put it on a CD or a video, somebody will come and take it.

I can name you many instances where would-be authors have gone to Indian people and asked them to tell them stories, they go away, and they write that and adapt it and amend it, and make it all kinds of, you know, their own way, and publish it as an official Acoma tale, and it sells like crazy. New Mexico had several of those. So, they, they're leery that somebody will take their oral history, their stories, their music, and use it for commercial purposes. So, when they talk about digitizing, that element applies. But on the other hand, and I learned this at the Arizona meeting because we have Hopi and Navajo there, were adamant: "We don't want, you know, we want this in our own, we don't want university archives to have this. We don't want," well, if you just wait, let them talk and listen, and then you say, "Okay. What will you do with it?"  "Oh, well, we have this warehouse you know we could put it out there." "Is it temperature-controlled?" "No." "Is it humidity-controlled?" "No." You just let them think through it and then they decide maybe it would be okay if your library kept it. 

And it would still be ours, but we can come and use it. So, just give them time and be patient. They realize the value. You all have heard this more than I, about languages that were lost and they come to a library in an archive and they find, you're at the top of this, recordings of their language. They have never heard those words, nobody remembers them anymore. So I think more and more there's a coming together and it takes special people like you two that are sensitive, caring, smart, that understand this to make that happen. Where better to keep this motherload of material than here? So I'm an advocate for you two. 

>> Guha Shankar: Thank you.

>> Judith Gray: Thank you so much.
^M00:43:54
^M00:43:57
>> Guha Shankar: Well, I was going to ask you something, you mentioned something interesting about, your travels have taken you abroad to meet with other Indigenous communities. And generally, where does the United States stand in relationship to the Maori who, as you said, are advanced? I mean, and I'm not using this in a comparison scale but I'm just wondering what needs to be done. 

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: No, that's extremely important, and I, you know I go home and do some homework because I haven't done this, five or ten years, but United Nations is trying to make a declaration, and worked on it with the IMLS, one of the legal councils over there has worked with them in writing policy and drafting a language that hopefully will be universally accepted. I actually don't know where that stands right now, but United Nations, and I believe there are some other international group, they were pushed, the Maoris have been very adamant, the Australian Aboriginal people have very adamant about these issues, and protocols and ownership, if you will. But there are other countries too. So many times they work in isolation and they need, there's great benefit in joining. And I actually have not researched that for a while, but I think the last thing I heard was that they're going to drop that, United Nations, that they call it Declaration of --

>> Judith Gray: Of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Yes, yes.

>> Judith Gray: Yeah, that was ratified and the US did sign on. 

>> Guha Shankar: Finally. 

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Aren't they still working with some language and things? There may be other aspects of it that they're -- I'm honestly not up on that right now. 

>> Judith Gray: Yeah. I think there's a little bit more debate in the World Intellectual Property Organization. They're, they're trying --

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Yes, yes, yes. WIPO? Is it WIPO?

>> Guha Shankar: WIPO, yeah. 

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Yeah. That's right.

>> Judith Gray: I think that's where their issues are being further discussed.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Because people get very, I've met archivists who just get livid, you know, that you don't think this should be in their archives or, I mean, they're very territorial, archivists are. 

>> Judith Gray: Who, us?

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Librarians are much more generous. Well, I understand. You know, I understand their point of view. But we need to get the two sides together and let the archivists, and I'm talking about university and, you know, that level, not at your level, where they need to listen to the Native people. They'll come together. But it's a matter of mutual respect. You need to respect one another and your interest and focus, foci, I guess it would be plural. That's a good point, though.

>> Guha Shankar: Thank you. I wanted to return to this notion of basic training for librarians, because you touched upon something I think is interesting, you've talked about a generational shift from the older generation of librarians who might have been older, or community scholars for lack of a better word, to people who got an accreditation who are younger. But is that generally the case that all tribal libraries will, can afford to have a person --

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: No, they can't. Nor small public libraries can't. No, and that's why you have to be realistic. I'm a realist. I realize you're not going to have MLS people out there. Sometimes they do. Laguna has a person who has graduated, has an MLS and she came back to the Laguna community because she wanted to serve her people. But sometimes, coming back to your own community is harder than an outside Native person. I always compare it to Jesus of Nazareth; you know, he couldn't go home, if that makes sense. So, sometimes it's very hard because -- I'll tell you why: because they're very critical of their own and they will not criticize an outside person like that. I've seen that happen. I saw it happen at Cochiti. We had a really bright young girl we trained and, but they were, the tribal leadership would just, it's different in each pueblo, but it's usually the elder men, it's always men, who have reached a certain status and they then govern the tribe. They have different duties. But I've seen them come down on her, cultural things, you know? "You shouldn't do this, you shouldn't," you know, and she was sitting there. Well, that's very hard to take for a bright young girl. So it's kind of -- it's a really good point, though. What do you do? They won't criticize an -- even a white person they won't criticize like they will their own. And I've heard an older Comanche woman explain it this way: "Oh, honey, don't worry about them. They're just white people and they don't understand." But I think that says a lot. You know, in other words, "Don't try to explain to them. They're just white people; they don't understand."
^M00:49:07
^M00:49:10
>> Guha Shankar: So taking up your, in the present in associations with the American Indian Library Association, which you were, you founded, what is its role today in educating and training Native people?

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Well, they say, the bylaws and mission, to assist tribal librarians but they really have no mechanism for doing so, because AILA, American Indian Library Association, is just composed of various people across the country who belong to the association.  We do publish a newsletter and, but we have no ability to provide what they really need, which is one-on-one assistance. We don't have that. What AILA should be is leading the charge for federal legislation for amendments to various pieces of legislation, the national visibility. That should be their role. It's not done very well, I mean -- well-intended people, it's done, you know, but it's just -- everybody's a volunteer, and nobody has time to say, "Okay, I'll go for six months out to Crow Reservation and -- we did have somebody do that, by the way, to help them catalog.

>> Judith Gray: So, AILA meets together with ALA, correct?

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Yes. AILA -- the American Indian Library Association was started -- it wasn't called that then but as a subcommittee to an ALA committee, they would call it, it's called OLOS now, Office of Library Outreach Services. We started as a committee, a subcommittee of a committee. ALA is very bureaucratic, and later we got to a point where we could say we're going to form our own association. We had no funding base, we had no, you know, so you understand, it has to just be volunteers and -- but there really is a role, and they will celebrate their 40th anniversary next spring, I mean, next ALA midwinter, I think, here in D.C. They have had a role, but in terms of doing on-site assistance, they just can't do it. But everything is good, you know, I mean, there is -- you need associations, you need groups that can speak as one voice. I've seen the power, as you know, being in Washington, there's power in numbers. And I don't know what the membership is now, but a few hundred. But we have many friends; there are many people that would help us if we ask.

>> Judith Gray: So probably ATALM -- the Association, again, for Tribal Archives Libraries and Museums -- is that more fulfilling the needs for training at this point, do you think?

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: It's a great conference and a great organization, but it has one purpose, and that is that meeting, an annual conference. But IMLS partnered -- well, that's funded by IMLS, but IMLS then said to the tribal libraries, "Here's your basic grant, $5000, but then you can ask for another 2000, so you can go to that conference. That's enabled the people -- because they have no money to travel -- enabled those people in those little places to come to that conference and network with others in the same shape, and that's invaluable. Very, very valuable. And the nice thing there is they get to meet the people from Washington who are the power brokers.

>> Guha Shankar: But I think you're being generous on the one hand to ATALM and IMLS, but you're also pointing out, it seems to me, a lack or a gap in terms of sustaining that knowledgebase, because ATALM meets once a year, but then the rest of the year what happens in between meetings? I mean, it seems to me that there's something --

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Well, unless they've encountered somebody and interfaced with them at the conference, exchanged information, got their emails, probably not much. But there's value in that, and I think a number of them do that. You've probably been approached that way.

>> Judith Gray: Yeah.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: You know, once they know you and they know they can call you -- that happens on a one-on-one basis, and I expect a good bit of that happens.

>> Guha Shankar: It does.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: More than I know. The nice thing about that conference is, they pull in people like yourselves, people from various government offices, who are really unapproachable to them out in those little -- Rough Rock, Arizona, until they've met them and they know they can talk to them. There are many -- I'm trying to think of some that were -- I call them fringe, like Parks Service. There are many different federal agencies that could have a role. That's what I see LC doing: having some element from the various and many departments, divisions, I can see where -- even the law library, you know, has an indigenous law library -- well that's invaluable, because tribal people need the law, and that's like them saying to me, "We don't want to have to go to the state and say, "What does the state statute say?" We want to look it up ourselves." So this indigenous law library component here -- I haven't explored it, so I don't know much about it but -- and I don't know if anybody from that office has come to the ATALM meetings. Have they?

>> Guha Shankar: Yes.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Good, good, okay. 
>> Guha Shankar: Yeah. 
>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: I am so busy when I go to ATALM, seeing people, and renewing acquaintances that I miss a lot of the meetings. But I'm out there, they all know I'm there, you know? I still get calls from people wanting help and I've also had calls, like, from a mother in Vermont whose sixth-grade child has a report due on, quote, "Indians" and could I please sell them everything I have on, quote, "Indians." I'm usually patient with them, but this time I wasn't. I usually say, "Go to your local public library." And her response was, "I don't have time."
So, I said, "Well what makes you think I do?" 
^M00:55:43
And I heard later that I made her sick and she had to go to the doctor. So, you never know what you're going to do or not do.

>> Guha Shankar: So I want to ask you, circling back to another point you made earlier, you talked about New Mexico obviously where you established the tribal libraries forum or the association -- that's a shining moment it seems to me in terms of success. How have those, sort of, relationships and those foundations you built -- how are they going on today in New Mexico? Are they continuing in terms of training and librarianship?

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Yes, and in New Mexico, because we worked a lot with the state library, every time we got a new state librarian, which was frequently, I would call them and say, "Let me take you out and show you the tribal libraries." So you have to work at it. And they, and then, after I left, one of the people I had hired to do training for me became -- guess what? The state librarian. 
^M00:56:48
So -- and Ben Wakashige you've probably met. They actually worked -- and Ben is a genius -- they got some state legislation, we had a Navajo legislator -- that helps -- whose sister was a librarian -- that helps. But he introduced legislation in the New Mexico legislature to provide state funds for tribal libraries. That's as far as -- I think New York did that, Joe Schubert many years ago did that in New York State. But that was kind of a first; most states won't do that, where they allocated some money for the tribal libraries. But the thing is, in those communities, if they're white people, anybody can come use the tribal library. It's not just for Indians. So it really is a community library.
^M00:57:36
^M00:57:40
>> Guha Shankar: I was curious, I mean, there's a point that was made I think maybe by one of your associates that libraries, because they are part of the education system, are actually a sovereign right, or a treaty right? Can you expand a little --

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Well, by treaty, with most tribes, the federal government promised the Indians, if they give up all their land and move, that the federal government would provide them with health, education and welfare. Those three big things. Well, you can fit libraries in two of those and maybe three. So they were what we call "treaty obligations," and we use that as saying, "You promised that you would provide" -- and the schools are obvious. Welfare's a broader term, but I fit libraries into that. And even health, because NIH approached me once, and "What can we do to work with tribal libraries?" They want to, they want to do it. But because tribes do have a status as being sovereign nations within a nation, they are -- they're sovereign. Only thing on a reservation, I've tried to explain to some tourists -- when you're on a reservation, state laws do not apply. Don't call the sheriff; they can't help you if you get in trouble. You're on your own. Tribal law applies. The only thing that precedes tribal law is federal law. So, you know, I used to think, when I crossed that line going into a reservation, I even took my sunglasses off because I didn't want to look like a tourist. Hide your camera, get rid of your camera. You are their guest, and that's the way I always looked at it. I'm afraid that is not an attitude some people understand, but they -- that relationship of federal responsibility to sovereign nations within a nation is very complicated. That's why we have high-paid tribal lawyers and there are law firms here in D.C. that only do tribal law. But it's complicated, and that's why the states, though, state libraries can say, "Hey, they're a federal responsibility. We don't owe them a thing. We do not put state money onto reservations, even if it's training." Now, that's less and less true, I think. Arizona has done things, New Mexico, but some states where there's a large Indian population still feel that way.

>> Judith Gray: Including Oklahoma?

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Oklahoma -- here's their response, the state librarian: "Well, they can come to us and we'll help them." Okay. They do training workshops for their public librarians, you know, the basic stuff. "They can come to those." Well, the little tribal libraries are a one-person library. They can't take off, and if they could, they don't have the money to drive 200 miles to Oklahoma City and spend a night in a hotel. They just can't do it. So we have a mix, you know, a mix and match. Sometimes they will go to those training sessions. I would say in Oklahoma they try to do, the state library, what they can. But they will argue, "We have to use state money, you know, in a certain way. The federal government should do that." It varies with the state librarian, who's the state librarian, what their attitude is. 

>> Judith Gray: And at the university itself in the library school, how much of the training there does end up for tribal people?

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: None.

>> Judith Gray: So all the time you were teaching there, it was --

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Well, think about it. Universities, you know, are -- it's a graduate school program, professors are all under the gun to write and publish, and to do something with tribal libraries is taking their own time. It's something they could do, and I would say they really don't. They might come to a meeting now and then. It's not that they don't support them; it's just that they are under the gun, fulfill their role as a researcher and a publisher. And as I was told, if they focused on Indians, that's not going to get them anywhere in their tenure track, generally speaking.

>> Judith Gray: Of course, it did for you.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Well, you know, you have to be really stubborn, like I was, [inaudible] say I'm going to do it anyway. But we do have -- the other element I've sort of tried to work on, is getting Indian professors, and we do have a few. But we need more.

>> Guha Shankar: You know, Lotsee, you just mentioned something about the fact that education and that was part of the treaty, you know, sort of obligation, and I'm reminded that the Esther Martinez language act for Native Americans is run through the Department of Health and Human Services.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Yeah, that's right.

>> Guha Shankar: So that's really interesting, just sort of supporting your point, that health, education and welfare in terms of education cuts across a lot of different federal agencies.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Yes, and I think another valuable thing for tribal libraries is to know about those things. I don't know how -- that's ANA you're talking about, yeah. There are, you know, among your big federal agencies, components that will work with Indians, but who knows about it? You know, how do you know about it and how do you know to access that? You know, I'll go begging on the streets if I think I can find some money. Or, not just money, but it's more assistance, because I think money is ephemeral, and you need the people connection. And I've always said, you can start a library anywhere and watch it grow. I've started them anywhere, and I get really, really tired of people who say, "Oh, we don't have money for that." Stop it! Just go do it! Just do it!

>> Judith Gray: Sounds like --

>> Guha Shankar: Yeah. So what are your present projects? What are you working on that's sort of right on the top of your -- besides the homework you have to do for the librarian?

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Yeah.

>> Guha Shankar: What else are you most involved with?

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Well, I'm involved as an advisor on this Oklahoma project with Sam Noble Museum. I'm not doing much advising because they know what they're doing, so they don't need me. But I'm cheerleading. You know, I think now I have more opportunity to one-on-one with people. I still get calls occasionally from people and I appreciate their effort and I never, never am impatient with the Indian. I am sometimes impatient with mothers of sixth-graders, but -- just the level of stupidity, I'm sorry -- there's no other way to say it. You know, first of all to say, "We need everything you have about Indians." Go to the Library of Congress and see how many floors it covers.
^M01:05:11
^M01:05:13

The other thing I guess I would say all of us should do is try to promote good writing, you know, people who write -- I don't care if it's non-fiction or fiction. We need people who write from a perspective -- from the right perspective. And it doesn't have to be Indian, but it has to be somebody who understands and appreciates. We need more and more people telling their own story, the Native people. I've worked on that for years, too, trying to encourage, without much success, I must say. I've had book publisher, editors, offer to help. "Tell me someone, I'll work with them." And I've tried, but it really doesn't take root. There are very few authors that can write a good fiction book and there are people who write non-fiction, which I say it has enough fiction in it to satisfy my need for fiction.

>> Guha Shankar: So you're working on a memoir then?

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Huh?

>> Guha Shankar: Are you working on a memoir?

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: No, but I have written my obituary. Would you like to have a copy? 
^M01:06:26
[ Laughter ] 
^M01:06:29
>> Judith Gray: Only later.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: I plan ahead, you know, I plan ahead. Well, at 86 you need to! And I will encounter somebody once in a while that I think might be interested and I link them with editors. Publishers are really, really -- I haven't done so much lately, but they want to find people who can do that. Some of you all help me with that. You must meet people that can do that.

>> Guha Shankar: Yes, sure. We'll give you some names. Well, we're going to come to the end of our time with you and we wanted to thank you, and I guess the final, sort of, question is, is there something that we should have asked or that you'd like to share with us before we bring this interview to a close? What's on your mind, I mean?

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: I think I've told you more than you wanted to know! 

>> Guha Shankar: No.

>> Judith Gray: No, no.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: So, that's a good question. I hadn't thought about that. I guess I would just implore you in your positions of influence and expertise to do everything you can, no matter how small, to move things forward. Also and backward, you know, the preservation and conservation, as well as looking ahead, because the ahead and the future -- you know, so many people think Indians are, like, gone. No. I've taken people, you know, want to go to Indian country, "Well, where are the Indians?" "Well you've just been passing them on the sidewalk, you didn't know that?" You know, so education -- you're in a position to educate both the Indian and non-Indian, or indigenous, I guess. So keep up the good work, keep up the fight.

>> Guha Shankar: Great, okay.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: I'm preaching to the choir I know. 

>> Guha Shankar: It's always good to get reinforcement for our work, so thank you for that.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Well, and know that someone appreciates it. You may think day to day nobody cares but we do. We do.

>> Guha Shankar: Thank you.

>> Judith Gray: Thank you.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: And no matter how little, it can be significant. You never know you've touched someone, or just a very innocuous little sentence leads to bigger things. So do it. Just do it!

>> Judith Gray: Thank you, Lotsee.

>> Guha Shankar: That'll be the last word from our guest today, Dr. Lotsee Patterson, and we thank you so much for your time.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Thank you.

>> Guha Shankar: We have had an interview with you here at the Library of Congress studio on December 20th. Looking forward to having more time with you --

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Might give the year, December 20th --

>> Guha Shankar: 2017. You're correct, thank you so much. 

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Okay.
>> Guha Shankar: We're still being educated by [inaudible] doctor. Thank you. We really appreciate your time.

>> Dr. Lotsee Patterson: Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity.

>> This has been a presentation of the Library of Congress. Visit us at LOC.gov. 
^E01:09:37