>> Speaker 1: From the Library of Congress in Washington DC. ^M00:00:04 ^M00:00:16 >> Sally Van de Water: Hi, good afternoon, I'm Sally Van de Water from the Folk Arts Program in Pennsylvania. It's my very great pleasure to be here at the American Folklife Center and introducing to you the founder of the Sattriya Dance Company, Madhusmita Bora and three of the dancing monks of Assam. Thank you for being here with us. Mandhu, I think I'd like to start with you and ask you, what is Sattriya? >> Madhusmita Bora: It's a dance tradition from the remote northeast corner of India, from the state called Assam. And it was preserved, nourished, and created as a form of worship in the Hindu Vishnu Monasteries. It kind of stayed within the Monastic walls for centuries. And it was only in the mid-20th century that y, it started coming out into the open. And today, it is one of India's eight classical dance form. And that recognition was actually recorded in the year 20000 And since then it has catapulted into the proscenium stage and you're seeing more and more people performing and learning the dance. >> Sally Van de Water: How is the dance different from, for example, Bharatanatyam, or Kuchipudi, or do you see some of the other dances that people might be familiar with. Also, it's an unbroken tradition of more than 500 years. >> Madhusmita Bora: It is a living tradition. And this is the only dance form that survived for centuries as a form of oral tradition was passed on from one generation of Hmong to the next. So, that is one major difference. And it's a breathing, living artform. And there are a lot of similarities. And I will defer that question to my teacher. ^M00:02:05 [ Speaking in Foreign Language ] ^M00:02:20 >> Prerona Bhuyan: So, we have a lot of similarities, at the same times we have the different see Hmong has the different dance [inaudible] of India. And Sattriya, basically, we use some elements as what we don't see in other dance form, the example, we used the hand gestures as a language. And in then classical dance and this dance we call language. So separate, these hand gestures, we use only Sattriya, but we don't see in other classical dance of India. So, this is specific. Likewise we have some elements like we bouncing. But we don't see in other dance form of India. Only we can see in Manipuri dance. Because Manipuri is very near to use, and it was the same stays in the long times. But after that it was separate. So, we can see only Manipuri dance. So, we have a lot of difference, then also the language. And we use the Brazowvi [phonic] language. This language composed by our great saint [foreign name] in 15th century. This language is what kind of mixed language. And he used this language as a holy language because at that time he has to convince to the people, if he used a normal language like ordinary people used common language, the people don't believe that this is one kind of holy. So, because of that he used a mixed language. So, this is called Brazowvi language. So, in Sattriya, we use this language. So, we have a lot of differences. >> Madhusmita Bora: Also, you know, it's mostly Krishna worship, we don't have too many, I mean goddesses, when we're telling stories. Most of the stories are related to Krishna. And the principle emotion is [foreign word]. >> Prerona Bhuyan: Yeah, that is very important piece in Sattriya, because Sattriya, they take it to the devotion. So, because of that, yes, it was the nine kind of [foreign word], the sentiments. But our ultimate destination we have search, we have to find the [foreign word], this devotion. >> Madhusmita Bora: So, yeah, it's a very devotional artform. Because it's part of your worship. And it's always, you know, it ends with submission to the lord and the universe. >> Sally Van de Water: You begin with devotion and then there's music, and then there's dance and then you end with devotion. That's lovely. As part of today's performance, you did your final piece was invoking 10 the incarnations of Krishna. Can you talk a little bit about how you and your dance partner portrayed that, how you were able to make that come alive for the audience through dance? >> Madhusmita Bora: So, in our tradition there are actually, you know, the other Indian classical dance, there's also another difference, there are 10 primary incarnations, in ours we say 24. But we still pick 10, the 10 primary ones. And you know, we talk about them. And the piece that we did, we don't know who choreographed it, but it is very, very old. And you know [foreign name] taught us and that was actually thanks to a grant from the Pennsylvania Council on the Arts. So, how we did it was we just divided our roles, the way it was choreographed. So, when, you know she's portraying the fish, I become the water. Or when, you know, she's a turtle head, I'm the turtle shell, you know. >> Sally Van de Water: Because she's portraying Krishna, and you're portraying Krishna nemesis. >> Madhusmita Bora: And then, just because you know, she's in a male costume. So, that's the other interesting aspect of this dance form. It's very gender fluid. Because the Hmong dress up as women. So, probably it is the only dance form right now, where women also dress up in a man costume. ^M00:07:12 [ Speaking in Foreign Language ] ^M00:07:17 Kuchipudi, in Kuchipudi they do it But in Kuchipudi, I don't know, do females dress up as men, anymore? I don't see that. I know male can dress as female, but female dressing up as men, I think this is the only dance form that have it? >> Prerona Bhuyan: Yes, but we have to think about this. >> Madhusmita Bora: Yeah, so that is one of you know so because she is always in the turban, so she gets to play the good guy, and I essentially become the bad guy. >> Prerona Bhuyan: And we don't say that this is the dance of Krishna, because we only believe that Krishna, Krishna [inaudible]. So, we don't believe the other goddesses. But yes, we believe we respect. But we believe this is a part of the Krishna so, because of that. The other classical dance form, when they dance, they dedicate to the dance for the goddess. We dedicate it only for Krishna. >> Madhusmita Bora: Yeah, Krishna is the principle deity. And that also brings to the other difference you're talking about. Our [foreign word] is called [foreign word], it's very soft. It's unlike the other dance form where it's very, very rigorous. There's the bouncing that you see. And that almost like the flowy movement of the river, I think, you know you're kind of gliding on the stage, rather than standing and making. >> Sally Van de Water: Well, it's incredibly elegant and fluid, yes. Absolutely. >> Prerona Bhuyan: Yes, because we believe that it is the [inaudible] to a heart for mother earth. So, because of that we bounce. >> Madhusmita Bora: Whereas, the other dance form, the bow and then they stamp on the mother earth [laughter]. >> Sally Van de Water: Well, I think, you know it's really remarkable that Sattriya has more than 500 years of unbroken tradition that's always been carried on in the monastery except in the last, say 20 years or so. Women are now also doing this as well. Can you talk a little bit more about that, you're one of the first women to do? >> Madhusmita Bora: No, I'm not one of the first. >> Sally Van de Water: Oh, you're not. Okay, sorry. >> Madhusmita Bora: So, actually probably 1960s. ^M00:09:34 [ Speaking in Foreign Language ] ^M00:09:40 Probavly 1960, but it was not, you know, it was not very, for the lack of a better word, it was not very cool. There was not enough funding. And there were other dance, classical art forms that were so vibrant at that time, even in Assam. Like [inaudible]. So, people were more drawn toward that. You know, ^M00:10:00 so there were like two, three practitioners, but not very many. ^M00:10:02 The access to the artform was also hard. Because most of the Hmong were not allowed to teach. ^M00:10:12 [ Speaking in Foreign Language ] ^M00:10:14 So, you know one of my teachers [foreign name] was, I mean he nearly got excommunicated because he ventured out to teach at that point. You know, this was in the 1980s. ^M00:10:25 [ Speaking in Foreign Language ] ^M00:10:31 So, he also wanted to like teach outside. But it was, you know there was this resistance, because the older monks wanted to preserve the tradition, and to let go was really , really hard. But I think since 2000, it has become. You know it has become more accessible. A lot of things have happened. Of course, India has progressed by leaps and bounds. Transportation is easier, the island is more accessible to go and learn. And then, you know there are practitioners like Bhabananda who are actually moving out and like, you know, staying in the cities and teaching students from all over. >> Prerona Bhuyan: But I think, this is my personal view, that the [inaudible] it not mean the [inaudible] didn't allow. It means the outsiders not interested about this. So, when the outsider interest to know about this, that's first of most often. Because the should trust people outside and they teach for the women insiders. So, I think that outsider was not interested before. So, when the outsiders get interested about this, the [inaudible] people, they wanted to give them these. >> Madhusmita Bora: So, yeah, it was more like access. You know there was no access. So, yeah that must have brought them yeah. >> Sally Van de Water: Absolutely. Can I ask you, Mr. [inaudible] how has it been to work with Madhu, you've been her apprenticeship teacher for a couple of years now? How has that been for you to have a student in the United States. ^M00:12:11 [ Speaking in Foreign Language ] ^M00:12:21 >> Madhusmita Bora: So, both of them actually I trained under both of them around the same time, so they can both talk about that. ^M00:12:29 [ Speaking in Foreign Language ] ^M00:13:04 So, he says when he first joined the. ^M00:13:06 [ Speaking in Foreign Language ] ^M00:13:10 When he was five, most of them, Barbayan is seventh generation Hmong from his family. He is third. So, most of them came and they joined the monastery when they were five or six years old. And so, you know he learned the music and the arts, and he really wanted to teach it. And teach the philosophy of the great teacher to outsiders. That was, you know he really had that passion for that. ^M00:13:35 [ Speaking in Foreign Language ] ^M00:14:05 So, you know he really wanted to teach outsiders, but at that point, they were forbidden to teach outside the monastery. But he had, you know he believed that he was in the right. So, he kind of you know, overcame all sorts of obstacles. And he started teaching. Because he really believed that you know, it was important to spread the message, and the philosophy of the great teacher, and his arts. So, that it would someday be presented on the world stage. ^M00:14:32 [ Speaking in Foreign Language ] ^M00:15:16 So, you know, he said basically, so when I went there, I first went to the [foreign word], I do believe I should translate correctly. The head of the monastery, right? You know, and that's what I did because I didn't know where to go. So, I went to the head of the monastery. And then, he kind of took me to meet Bhabananda. But he was busy there was a documentary filming that was going on, so he told me you have to wait for an hour. And then, you know after waiting around when I finally met with him, he said; you know, I told him that I wanted to learn the dance form. And you know, he said he was very happy because he likes teaching and then he knew I had come from so far. So, he happily took me under his wings. ^M00:16:02 [ Speaking in Foreign Language ] ^M00:16:32 So, it was in 2002, he's getting emotional. So, this was in 2002 when you know we started talking. And then, you know we would always have these discussions. And I always said I wanted to bring them here, and he would say, yeah can we all go and maybe someday; because they have never been to the United States. And he said, you know maybe somehow you can arrange it. And you know we knew it was a Herculean task. Because bringing a group of people when you know the funding, it is very expensive. And, but you know he always believed. I mean he would always say, it will happen, it will happen. And I also had this crazy dream. So, he said he is so happy to be here today. He is overcome with emotions, because this has been, you know we've talked about this since the early 2000s and it's happening and it's like really unreal. >> Sally Van de Water: Well, it's really a very great honor, thank you. We're very honored to have you here in this magnificent space. Thank you, I hope that you have a wonderful time here in the United States. Thank you. I have a blank moment now. What else do you think is important? What else is important for you that we record with. Do you want to ask [inaudible] about? ^M00:17:54 [ Speaking in Foreign Language ] ^M00:19:08 >> Madhusmita Bora: So, he was five years old when he joined the [foreign word]. And they're cousins. And they're both National Award winners, both of them. So, you know and for 18 years he trained vigorously in the artform because he lived in the monastery. But this was, you know prior to Hotchia [phonic] becoming a classical artform. He really wanted to study another classical dance form to bring those rigors into his movement. So, he left the monastery in pursuit of studies and trained in another dance form for two years, but he doesn't perform it or teach it. It was just for his own understanding, and you know, studying Hotchia as a classical artform. And then, because he was originally from the monastery. So, there are a lot of, they have to live a very disciplined life. It is hard. Bhabananda manages. ^M00:19:59 I don't know how. But it is very, very hard. So, when he was there, you know he started living, and now he's a family man. He kind of left the order. And for me, again the access to Madgule has always been an issue, because it is you know, you have to travel by boat. When the river is in state, it's really, really hard to get there. So, I was also looking for alternatives in the city. So, I would divide my time. I could only go to Madgule for some time, and then when I'm in the city, where my parents are right now. And [inaudible] kind of lives there. And again, the head of the monastery connected us and said, you know when you're in town, in your hometown, you can study under him. So, that's how we did it. >> Sally Van de Water: Tell me more about Assam. You grew up there. And you grew up in the town and how far is that from Madgule from the monastery? The town? >> Madhusmita Bora: It is pretty far. So, I was born in a small down called Dispur and then I was raised mostly in my father's village it's called Madhcal [phonic]. And it's interesting because Madhcal is kind of a seat of art and culture, so I grew up like listening to the rhythms of you know Hotchia. My aunts and uncles trained in it. and we have this unbroken tradition which is hundred-something years old. ^M00:21:33 [ Speaking in Foreign Language ] ^M00:21:35 That happens in my village. So, all my cousins. I mean it happened this year, and I was supposed to perform, but I couldn't make it. My uncles, my extended family were always involved in [foreign word]. So, you know it was kind of second nature almost to kind of get immersed in the arts. But Madgule is pretty far from there and then, I had to pursue my education and at that time, Assam was in a very turbulent state. You know, we had a secessionist outfit. So, it was not a very safe place for most people. So, my parents kind of encouraged me to leave the state and go outside for my high school and my college. And that's what I did. So, you know there was, I learned under a teacher in my hometown for a little while, and then that connection was snapped because. Yeah. And that was, and I was four or five years old, until about seven years of age. Then I left Dispur and I left [inaudible] and I kind of grew up in Delhi. And there was no, you know I didn't have access to anybody then. So, I went to the next best alternative, which was Kathak. So, I trained in Kathak for about 16 years. But what was interesting was my Kathak teacher, Janet Kadidi [assumed spelling], who lives in New York. And she has trained under one of the luminaries, a living legend [inaudible]. And I joined her dance company. So, I was part of the Kathak Ensemble and Friends in New York. And it was very interesting because in doing choreographies, or when I'm dancing, and she would say, you're lost, she'll always say, there's some sadness in your movement. And where did you get this from. And it was my muscle memory. So, even though I was one of the senior most performers in her group, you know one day she just said, child you need to go. You need to go back, and you know follow your heart, this is not where your heart is. And I think, you know even to this day for me, like she is my ultimate teacher, because she let go. And she said, just go, and follow your dreams, you know and pursue your passion. So, that's how I actually ended up in the monastery when I met [inaudible] the first time. And then, you know I realized because it's so precious and it's of course, you know there was this deep connection. It was very easy to get back to it. And I let go of Kathak even after 16 years of training, I gave away my bells, all my costumes, because I didn't want any kind of you know alteration of what I'm doing. Because this is my heritage and I would like to preserve it the way, and you know accord it the respect and sanctity that it deserves. >> Sally Van de Water: That's wonderful. I know you've got a lot of support from the P Foundation and. >> Madhusmita Bora: Absolutely, I've been so lucky that you know, I mean two PCA grants, three Levy Foundation grants and in one of, the second Levy Foundation grant Bhabananda was in the monastery and that's how, I was working on this project, yeah. So, you know so Bhabananda kind of helped me document all the basic grammar of the dance form. And Pew, I mean Pew is unbelievable. You know, I just in my wildest dreams did not think it was going to happen. And here we are you know after a year of like, it feels like I have done a PhD in the last year or two. But you know I'm so grateful for the support. And yes Pew is you know very generous with their grant, but leading up to it, you know if I wouldn't have had the support Levy, or from Pennsylvania Council on the Arts, I don't think I'd be where I am today. Because it's a very lonely ride. You know, since I'm the only one practicing it here and that access to the teachers and to the nerve center is so important and without funding and support, you know I wouldn't have been able to do what I'm doing right now. >> Sally Van de Water: I really want to ask you a little bit more about that. You are the only practitioner here in the United States doing this artform, and it's usually done in the context of a group, a larger group such as at the monastery. How do you negotiate that? How do you? What's your daily practice like? What do you do to keep the traditional alive in your own life? >> Madhusmita Bora: I feel like, you know for most of us, it becomes; it's the nature of the artform. It is actually a way of life. It's a way of life. For them, of course, I mean this is, they live, breathe and you know this is what they do. But even for other practitioners, I think it becomes your life's philosophy. And it is hard like to be the only person. But I've been very blessed because my dance partner and you know the cofounder of the dance company is my sister-in-law. Which is just, you know was wonderful. That's very convenient. And she travels here quite frequently whenever we have shows, big shows. And we dance together, even in India, or last year we performed in London. It is hard, because it is essentially a community worship which they can do. I mean we cannot create that music, you know I mean this is very special. So, the first time that we're doing it with live musicians, you know, yeah, I mean here. You know, because I don't have access to that. So, this was very, very special because we're always dancing to recorded music. So, even though, yes, you know your philosophical and it's such a spiritual artform, and you're in it and you're in it and you're you know, every movement is sort of an offering to the universe and to the Lord. But like, it's not the same when you don't have the community. You know. So, it is very special. But like, to keep it going, again, it's because I think it's the passion that drives it. It's also like you know these are the stories and you feel that burden to kind of carry on these stories forward and leave it for the next generation. For me, it's my son. You know, that's his connection to his roots. So, that's what drives me, I guess. >> Sally Van de Water: Does he dance? >> Madhusmita Bora: No, he doesn't [laughter]. But he's really into all the stories. So, yeah. >> Sally Van de Water: Well, thank you. We're so honored to have you here. Thank you again, thank you for traveling such a long way. Is there anything else that you would like to say, or like to add? >> Madhusmita Bora: So, what we're really excited about you know is the Pew Grant is funding this project, which is called the Threads of History, Resurrection of the Textile. So, this is you know a part of tapestry that I discovered in the Philadelphia Museum of Art, which was actually in storage. And on the trip when I met Barbayan and [inaudible] and we were documenting the grammar of the artform through my Levy Grant was when he mentioned about, he said, you know there is a possibility, that you know this tapestry exists. So, I was on a wild goose chase, through because I didn't know how to ask them what it was, because I mean if I say [foreign word] they had no idea what it was. So, it took about almost 2, 3 years and by then the museum had gotten funding to digitize their collection. So, one night I was looking through their digital archives and I came across it and it was called the clothe of Vrindavan. So, immediately, I was so excited and I kind of called him and sent him the pictures and I said, is this what we were looking for. And he said, yes that's it. You know, incredible I know. ^M00:29:59 So, then I wrote the curators. But unfortunately the south Asia was under renovation. So, she said, you know two months and then you can come and see it and that's when you can photograph it. So, it was a long two months. And I went in and then that moment when I first saw it was really unbelievable, you know. We took pictures. I sent it to them, and then you know that's who we started working on it. And then, the Philadelphia Folk Art Project actually, who have also supported my work and then they said, why don't you go and talk to the Pew, this is totally, like it has Pew written all over it right? So, the next call was to Pew and they invited me to apply. And so, it's finally coming together. So, Barbayan has been traveling to different parts. So, he has done a translation of the textiles in London, at the British Museum and in Paris. So, this is his third. So, we are calling it the Journey of [foreign word]. And it's happening you know Saturday, April 21st at the Philadelphia Museum of Art. They're hanging the tapestry, I'm so excited about this, in the auditorium. And you know, I'm presenting them, I'm not dancing, because this is their pilgrimage. And they will be basically just bringing the cloth to life through their movements and telling the stories from the cloth. >> Sally Van de Water: That's wonderful. Please tell us more about this textile. Does the textile depict the stories that you're also embodying through dance? Can you tell us more? >> Prerona Bhuyan: These textiles woven under the guidance of the great saint, [foreign name] in the 15th century. So, were depicted the story of the Krishna. Yeah. So, we wanted to reveal this through out artform. So, it was in 2008 when we first visit in Paris, the times we had first to visit the textile. So, the net year 2009, that's when I visit again in Paris at that time some ideas come out if we can do something on that textile. So, after we had discussed with professor of university. Then, said yes you can do something. So at that time start it and in 2011 I was there in nine months for only for the study of the textile. Then, so I choreographed one drama based on the textile. Then Sattriya to produce. So, subsequently we again, we did afford the [inaudible] on the basis on [inaudible] and it was in 2016. But this is our third one, then headed by her because we thanks to Madhusmita because she support us, and she give confidence of dance and so we are able to do because of her. >> Madhusmita Bora: But I wouldn't be here if it wasn't. So, it's a wonderful circle. But the presentation in the textile is you know 15 to 16th century they're saying, we can't date it and what's interesting was these textiles were all mislabeled. So, there are some that appeared from India and they were all in Tibet and from Tibet they went to different parts there. They're now saying there are like 15 pieces of these textiles, there's only one piece available in India, in a museum in [inaudible] and the rest are dispersed all over. Ours is the third piece that they are going to be bringing to life. >> Sally Van de Water: Are they identical pieces? Or are they all? >> Madhusmita Bora: No, they all have stories from Krishna's life from the time of his birth to death. ^M00:34:22 [ Speaking in Foreign Language ] ^M00:34:26 >> Prerona Bhuyan: According to the ancient scripture, there's other, those textiles that depicted only the story of Krishna back to the death of his maternal uncle. But in particular when we see the different places what discovered, there we can see the story of [foreign word] too. So, the scholars, they're going to say that maybe it's not original piece, maybe this is not continuation of the tradition, that they made this kind of piece it was for the [foreign word]. >> Madhusmita Bora: Yeah, the scriptures, you know you cover, it's like yeah. Yeah, yeah. >> Sally Van de Water: How large are the textiles? >> Madhusmita Bora: The one in the Philadelphia Museum is about is it about 6 feet? Yeah. Long and I cannot remember the measurements. It's this broad, yeah and that one has all stories of Krishna in it and it's woven in you know strips. And it kind of continues. Like it's the four scenes and then the four. So, you know we kind of decode it. So, they'll be using masks. And they'll be using masks. And they'll be doing it as a dance drama tradition. And so, you saw some of it. The [inaudible] dance that he did today, the storyteller's dance and he'll be doing that even in the museum. Telling the story. Yeah. But you know the Philadelphia Museum piece was actually brought into Philadelphia in early 1990s, and what is really amazing is Phillis Blum [assumed spelling] who is the creator of textiles who purchased the cloth is still there. So, she will be sitting on the panel. Yeah. And she didn't know what it was. Like, she just thought it was this amazing fabric. And it just spoke to her, so she bought it at an auction. And so, when I approached them, they were like, wow. You know like they didn't know. >> Sally Van de Water: That's so amazing that you can give that much context to the piece. >> Madhusmita Bora: Yeah, yeah. So, we've been able through the Pew Fund we were able to also create this documentary, and this is the second or third time that the text will be on display in the South Asian Gallery. And they're planning to have it up for the next six months. And some of you know the documentation I did in the monastery will be played along in a panel on a loop. So, that's very exciting. Thank you. >> Sally Van de Water: Very exciting. Congratulations, that's wonderful. Well thank you so much. Thank you all this was really incredible. Thank you. >> Madhusmita Bora: Thank you. >> Sally Van de Water: Thank you for being here. >> Madhusmita Bora: Thank you. >> Speaker 1: This is the presentation of the Library of Congress. Visit us at loc.gov.