>> From the Library of Congress, in Washington D.C. ^M00:00:05 ^M00:00:18 >> Mark Walker: My name is Mark Walker. My stage name is Professor Horn. And I've been performing Punch and Judy now for about 25 years. >> Michelle Stefano: For those who aren't really familiar with what Punch and Judy shows are, would you mind giving us a little overview? >> Mark Walker: Yes, it's a very funny puppet show, and I think it's one of the things that attracts me to it. It's -- they say that authentic Punch and Judy shows have several elements to it, one of which is that it would have use of a slapstick in the show. It would also -- the performer would also use a swazzle. That's S-W-A-Z-Z-L-E. And it's a little device. It's made of metal and tape. And you balance it on your tongue, and it's almost like a reed instrument. So, when you -- it has to be wet. And as you speak, the words come through there, and it's -- that's how Mr. Punch talks. But they say if it doesn't have that, technically, it's not considered a Punch and Judy show. There are some basic characters to the show. Of course, there's Punch, Judy, the baby, the police officer, and there are other characters such as Joey the Clown, a crocodile, and sausages, and so forth. But no two Punch and Judy shows are alike. There are some similarities in that when Punch comes up and meets Judy, they have -- they bring out the baby. There's some sort of interaction between them. Something usually happens to the baby, and then there's a call for the police officer. And then from there, it just goes in a million and one different directions. It's left up to the performer to take it from there. And not all shows actually have a crocodile. It can. Most shows do. But I've seen some shows end with the devil. So, it's -- and again, a lot of variety in it. And that's what makes it kind of fun, too. [Inaudible], so. >> Michelle Stefano: And Punch and Judy shows, the roots go back many centuries. >> Mark Walker: Yes. Well, it was first seen in England in -- on May 9th, 1662. There was a man named Samuel Pepys. He was a journalist. He kept a diary. And he noted that there was this very funny puppet show. And at the time, it was actually marionettes, and it -- it just took a long time, hundreds of years, for the show to evolve. And of course, there was no Judy in the show. She came about later, as did some of the other characters. The devil, and so forth. But the devil and Judy, her name was Jo, were the earlier puppets in the program. And as time went on, again, it took hundreds of years to evolve from marionettes to glove puppets, and for these characters to be introduced into the show. And like -- even like the -- there's like -- like you have the police officer, but back then -- if you ever saw the movie, Oliver, there's a character in there who's known as the Beetle. And he was sort of like -- I guess it would be their version of a police officer back then. So, they would introduce this Beetle character and they would call for the Beetle. He would come up, and again, there were interactions. But as that character became out of fashion, then they put the police officer in. So, the show was always moving and evolving. And there's always novelty scenes in the show, too. I was telling somebody where it was -- I've seen some of the shows, they have a baby Trump puppet. And he has a long, red tie, and his hair is, you know, going to the side. And I've seen them where they would introduce characters. They would -- the devil would be in the show and they would rip the devil's mask off, and he was Darth Vader. So, you could do with the show whatever you want to do. And that's part of the fun with it, I think, you know? But--. >> Michelle Stefano: In England, before we get to Punch and Judy here in the U.S., what were the main functions of the tradition? Where would you come across it? How has that changed over time? >> Mark Walker: Well, initially, the show was seen on the streets. I mean that was it. They appeared at fairs and so forth. And sometimes they weren't necessarily the main attraction, either. They were used to bring people into the fair. That's how it began. But most of the shows, the earlier shows, they were actually intended for adults. And if you look at some of the prints and engravings, you will see, most of the -- not to say their children are not there, and not to say that they weren't laughing, but the performer would often plate the adults because they were the ones that had money. And the performer had another person. Usually it was a two-person thing, when they became glove puppets. Sometimes it was a family member. If the performer was married, hid wife would there, the son, or whoever. But if it was -- he was working by himself. There was always another person. It could be a friend, or somebody could pick up, and it was called the Bottler, B-O-T-T-L-E-R, I think that's how I spelled Bottler. And that performer, I mean, he was -- he assisted the entertainer. His job was to help draw a crowd. And sometimes he would bang on a drum and play some panpipes. But actually, during the show, his job was to take a bottle, and go throughout the audience and take up a collection. That's basically what he did, you know? So, and again, it just evolved and then, as I mentioned earlier in the talks, but you know, the -- his image became the [inaudible], as we moved into the Victorian times. And that's when they cleaned up the shows. A lot of the times, the shows were -- they didn't have red and white striped puppet theaters. [Inaudible] called fit-ups, F-I-T-U-P-S, fit-ups. And a lot of times, they used what was called ticking which was a material to cover mattresses. A lot of times, it would be like blue and white check material, and that was what you know, before they came with the red and white, you know? And -- but, I'm not rambling here [inaudible]. >> Michelle Stefano: [Inaudible] yes. This is so fascinating. Well, tell us about the roots of the tradition in the U.S., or when it migrated over the Atlantic [inaudible]. >> Mark Walker: Yes, it was -- I think Punch was here about 1742. It was seen in -- I'm sorry. It was seen in Philadelphia, and I think there was an advertisement for it. They called it Punch and Joan. And they advertised that the figures were about two or three feet high, which would lead you to believe they were marionettes. And it was. It's called Punch and Joan. You could see, it had not evolved into a true Punch and Judy, as of yet. And then in some of the work that I did, I said there was a book, Maryland as a Palatinate, they mention a Punch and Judy in Annapolis, and that was before the American Revolutionary War. And then I found a Colonial newspaper. The name escapes me. But I know that Punch was actually in Fell's Point, Maryland, but that was also done as a marionette show. And that was -- like somewhere like 1750, 1760. So, it was here very early. And they said that George Washington in his records, or journal, that he bought a ticket to see a Punch and Judy show. So, it does go back. And it was seen throughout -- and there was a performer, Albert Walker, he actually did the show during the Civil War at one of his -- I don't have it on display, but I have one of his broadsides. But he did the show in the Civil War. Interesting thing, his puppets, they only had one arm on each side. They called it Economies of Scale. The audience only saw one side, so he had one arm facing [inaudible]. It was stupid, but that's what he did. But the shows played all around. They were very big in circuses and circus side shows. That's where they really picked up. And a lot of times, with the circus side shows, they called it a 10-and-1-show where you would go in and pay money, and you would see these 10 acts for whatever it was, a dime, and they would have a magician, a fire eater, but one of the performers was always a Punch and Judy man. And many of the guys were not -- well, they were full-time entertainers, but not -- they did other things other than Punch and Judy. And if you were to study magic history and Punch and Judy, you see there is a correlation between most of the Punch and Judy men, not all, but many have been magicians. I can't explain that. You know, it's just one of the allied arts. I guess that's the best way to explain it. And--. >> Michelle Stefano: And you started out as a magician as well. >> Mark Walker: That's correct. >> Michelle Stefano: And you still are. >> Mark Walker: Right, that is correct. And over in England too, where they have -- and you didn't see it too much here, but a lot of the Punch and Judy men are magicians, and also ventriloquists. And there was two performers. One, George Horn, he was a magician and a ventriloquist. He actually worked with two -- he actually had two figures. Actually, had the one figure. He sold me, and I kind of regret selling it, but it was made by Frank Marshall, which is a very famous Chicago -- a carver. And I sold it, and it was bought -- I sold it for like $2,000. I only paid $300 for it. But it was sold to a collector. And one time I was watching a movie called "Rock the Cradle," and it starred Bill Murray, and there was Oscar in that movie. Bill Murray was using Oscar. I almost fell out of my seat when -- "There's Oscar." And I remember I had pictures of him in my house, you know what I mean? But I just thought that that was so funny. ^M00:10:57 But that, again, the idea of a magician, ventriloquist, Punch and Judy man, not too much here, but over in England, you still see that. They call it the Triple Threat, where you could perform all three of those skills. You know, so. >> Michelle Stefano: Well, let's take it to Baltimore. >> Mark Walker: Okay. >> Michelle Stefano: To the particular Punch and Judy show tradition that you are continuing. It has a long legacy in Baltimore. The Horns. >> Mark Walker: Right. >> Michelle Stefano: Excuse me, Horn's Punch and Judy Show, 1897? >> Mark Walker: Right. There's a name -- a man named James Edward Ross, and he performed the show at a place called Pat Harris's Dime Museum. And he was there for a number of years, but his -- there was an amusement park, no longer exists, it was called Riverview, and he was there every Sunday performing. Of course, it would be during the summertime, okay. And he was there for many years. But he also performed -- he actually performed at a lot of the embassies in Washington D.C. Performed at a lot of them. And they performed at Young's Million Dollar Pier in Atlantic City. He was there. And they said that when he performed on this pier, they actually had during the show, they also had seals. A seal act. And they would applaud during the show. And I thought that was so funny. Seals applauding during his Punch and Judy show. But, yes but he was there for many years and like I said, Theodore Roosevelt saw his show and absolutely loved it. But there was a young gentleman, George Horn, and he saw Rosella, and he went to Riverview all the time to see him, and talk to him, and he learned the show from him. He learned the basics from him, is what happened. And Rosella actually taught one or two other performers how to do the show. But what happens is, is you learn the show, it's almost like you also -- it's like a soup starter. You get it, here's the basic thing, you take it, and then you work with it from there. And it's really getting a recipe. You get a recipe and say, "Oh, it's this," and say, "Oh, but you know, it would taste better if I just added a little bit of sage or I added this in there, or [inaudible], or Old Bay," you know? You can throw Old Bay in there. But it's -- and that's how it works. And I think that's the way it's supposed to be meant to be. You know, you start with a basic thing, add to it, and then make it better by the time you're done with it. Now, for me, what I did is I -- because I was really into magic and magic history, and I had written a couple magic history books. So, as I was getting into Punch, I decided I was -- I saw what happened in the magic collecting world, where in the -- let's see, my mom died in '87. Somewhere around '87, '89, the magic collecting world went crazy. Posters that you could buy for 3, $400, were now selling for 3 or 4 thousand. It just went crazy. And I have some of those now, but I had a -- I saw what happened in the magic world, and I thought, "You know what? I don't hear a lot of talk about Punch and Judy," and this was actually pre-internet days, right? Because I think that came a little bit later. And so, I just started to go out and collect whatever I could on Punch and Judy and books. And as I read this stuff, I -- read through their scripts and say, "Now, that's a good idea. Maybe I could take this -- oh, that's a good joke." Maybe I would take that. And the one joke I have in my show about the -- with the devil [inaudible], "Well, if you're the devil, let me shake your hand." And, you know, "Why is that?" "Because I'm married to your sister." Well, that was an old joke that was given to me by -- who's the guy's name? Oh, it escapes me right now, but he was a famous -- it'll come to me. Yes, the performer. But he was from New York. And his son told me about that joke. So, I thought, "What a great joke. I haven't heard that." So, I added that to the show. And it -- and some of it's also me, too. You know, I would hear things or funny things would happen and I would add it into the show. But I did keep some stuff that was from Rosella. That whole bit about the devil, "You better not tell," and the monkey and all that. That came from the Rosella, George Horn show, that I kept in there as some of the features. But some of the things, like I said, I added it. I saw some things done in England, and I thought, "Oh, that's pretty funny." And I didn't copy it, per se. I added you know, my own bits to it. And -- but by doing a lot of research too, I was able to -- you know, there was another performer. He used that joke about, his name's Punch Jr. Jr. Jr. Jr. Get it, he's part of the Punch line. Which I thought was very funny. And apparently, that was used in a show, and the performer was deceased, and I had done research on the performer, and I thought, "What the heck? That's a great line. I'm going to use that." And I don't think I'm the only one that does that. I think other performers, they pick up a line here, a joke, a gag or whatever, and you put it in a show, and if it sticks and it gets a good laugh, you know, you leave it in. And sometimes, it's often been said you -- you have to give a joke a while to -- you shouldn't disregard a joke just because the first audience doesn't laugh at it. Sometimes you just also have to get the timing of it down too. You know, it's just like you say this, you wait two or three seconds, and then you say this. And by doing that, you know, you get it. But again, you've got to work it out. Sometimes, you may get a bad audience, too. Never give up on a joke, just right away, anyway. But, anyway, that's [inaudible] to it. >> Michelle Stefano: Well, going back to George Horn, one of my favorite aspects of the history of Horn's Punch and Judy show, is how you first came across him. And in the 1960s? >> Mark Walker: Right, right. I was-- >> Michelle Stefano: East Baltimore? >> Mark Walker: Right, so what happened, it was the summer of '63. And I went to -- I lived around Patterson Park in East Baltimore. And I went to a Catholic School, and we had the nuns. But this one year, I happened to have a lay teacher, [inaudible], and she was a very nice lady. And she said, toward the end of the school year, "We're going to have a summer picnic. And we're going to you know, I'm going to invite everybody to it." So, [inaudible], "Yes, right, I'll never -- she's never going to want to do that." But then one time, during the summer, some of the -- because I didn't live that far from school and some of the neighborhood kids, "Hey, don't forget, we're having this party." So, I went over, and it was on a Saturday, and I still remember, we had hot dogs and sodas and we played dodgeball, and then we walked over. It was around Baltimore Street and Lakewood Avenue, and it was George horn, and he had his Punch and Judy cabinet or fit-up there, and he did the show. And I just remember -- I can't remember -- I actually cannot remember too much about the show, but I do remember his puppet theater. I thought, "Oh, that's really neat. That's neat." Yes, but he did something -- I sometimes do it, and he's the only one I ever saw do it. He would bring out the crocodile puppet at the very end of the show, and he said, and this is why I never forgot it, he said, "If you let the crocodile give you a very gentle bite on the fingers, you'll have good luck for a whole year." And I thought, "Oh, that's what I want. You know, I want good luck for the rest of the year." So, I did that. And I still do that sometimes, if it's a smaller crowd, manageable. Or if something happens and I have to stretch for some particular reason, you know, somebody's -- you know, Santa Clause is there. "Can you hold off and do something for another you know, 15, 20 minutes?" I'll do that, you know? So, that's a great little thing. But alright, so, what was I saying? >> Michelle Stefano: Well, you first met him [inaudible]. >> Mark Walker: Oh, yes, yes, yes. >> Michelle Stefano: You came across this show. >> Mark Walker: So, what happened was, I remembered his name and I think I discovered the yellow page -- of course, they don't -- they're going out of style now, the yellow page phone directories. And I saw his name. It was listed under "Magicians." And I said to him -- I called him up, and I said, "Do you have any puppets for sale?" And he, "Oh, I might have a couple." And I said, "Well, I'd like to come over and visit you." So, I talked to my parents and they kind of humored me along and you know, I just kind of lost interest. ^M00:20:07 But there was a book out that I got out of the library. It was Punch and Judy by Ed Emberly [phonetic], I think is his name. It was a children's book. Had these wonderful illustrations of Punch and Judy. He also, I think he was the illustrator. And I checked that book out of the library, I know, 30 times. And it would go back in and I would get it out again, and go back -- and I used to -- as a kid, I used to dream about doing this show. But I was also getting magic books out. You know, [inaudible] a kid. [Inaudible] got like a thousand things going on at the same time. And so, what happened was, I didn't think too much more about Punch and Judy till it was about 1985, and I was at the house and my mother said something to me. She said, "Mark, there's something coming up on television about puppets." And I had no idea what it was. And I took a VCR tape. What do you call them now? I don't know what they're called. But I shoved it into the recorder and I hit Record. And it came up, and there was a three-minute segment on the weekend Saturday news. And it was all about Punch and Judy. It was from England. I actually still have that. I kept that. And it was John Stiles who is probably one of the world's most famous Punch and Judy men. He was a couple years ago, he was awarded the MBE, Member of the British Empire by the Queen for his work with Punch and Judy. There's a couple movies out, 102 Dalmatians, he worked for Disney. And [inaudible] Polar Express. The scene was actually cut, but if you look in there, there is a scene. He actually, Tom Hanks, flew him to California. He was there for like a week doing that. And he also did it with Roman Polansky's Oliver Twist. There's a little scene of Punch and Judy. So, he's a well-known Punch and Judy man. But when I saw this, this clip, a lightbulb went off in my head. And I said, "George Horn." So, had it not been for seeing this with John, I would have never -- probably would have never performed Punch and Judy at all. But it took two things. It took George Horn and it took this film clip about John Stiles. The two of them had to come in and hit me at the right time, and that's what did it. And my niece had a birthday coming up, and I was not married at the time, and I always did something fun for their birthdays. So, I called George Horn up and told him. I said, "Look, I saw your show when I was a kid, and ba, ba, ba." So, I hired him, and the kids were in hysterics watching this show. And I said, "What a fantastic thing?" But I looked at him, I mean, his stage didn't look anywhere near as good as this one, but it was just such a fun act, and I thought, "You know, that's what I should be doing. I really should." So, his wife died probably a couple months later, and I called him up and I'd be coming over his house about once a month. And I would take him out to dinner. And I would just go over his house. I didn't want anything. Just hanging there with him. I didn't -- I asked him about Punch and Judy, and he also knew a lot about the history of magic in Baltimore. He had been around, what was it? Since 1902, I think? He'd been around for everything. I mean, he knew Howard Thurston. I mean Howard Thurston came to his house once. And -- that's a famous magician. So, that's what happened. I would come over there, and then -- I said to him once, I said, "Look, never stop performing. I think you have a wonderful act. You should always do it. But, the day you decide that you want to retire, I'd be interested in taking over." And then one day, he called me up, out of the blue, and said, "Mark," he goes, "I think I'm about ready to retire." So, I think I bought the show for about $300. I said, you know, "What do you want?" He said, "Three hundred." But I actually gave him an extra $100 because I just -- and then, I worked with him, and then he started to teach me about the swazzle, and then the show, and we went over the script and it was a lot of that. So, I basically did his show verbatim for a while, because it's like -- I mean, that was my soup starter. I didn't know what to do. You know? And the weird part about doing the show first, it took me about six months to memorize the script, but then you had to get the timing of it down in front of a live audience. And that's where it took probably another year or so for that to connect. Because otherwise, you're just doing this stuff, and you know, people are -- they might be laughing, or you've got to figure out how to get a laugh out of this. And it's, again, it's getting that timing down. And you can only do that in front of a live audience. You can practice all you want, but unless you're actually there working in front of a live audience, you cannot get that. So, we -- that took a year -- a little bit better than a year. But then even from there, it was always learning. Learning something else. Trying something else. And you know, [inaudible]. >> Michelle Stefano: And that's a core aspect of the tradition, that it's passed down and usually there are apprentices and obviously masters-- >> Mark Walker: Correct. Yes. >> Michelle Stefano: -like George Horn was to you. >> Mark Walker: Right, that is correct. >> Michelle Stefano: And it's really interesting. You know, you feel that it took a year to really feel that you were mastering, or you had a good handle on the show? >> Mark Walker: Well, I would just say, I was always a slow learner. Probably took me a little bit longer, but I was having fun too, and learning it. And -- but at the same time as I was doing it, I was envisioning doing something more than that. And because I had some puppets and his stage was beat up -- kind of beat up. So, it was then -- it was a case of -- I still have his stage and his puppets. But I wanted to rebuild that. And then take it up a few notches. And then, I went over to England, I think the year after my son was born. So, that would have been '96. And I went over and had a whole new set of puppets. Not these, but some other puppets. And I had them made. And I came back. And then -- then I started to really improve and get with it and do stuff. And again, you're never done. You're never done. You aren't, you know? >> Michelle Stefano: Well, that's what fascinates me, this idea that you know, what you learn, what are the skills for instance, the puppet making, and the timing sounds like a core aspect of what you need to practice. >> Mark Walker: Right, right. >> Michelle Stefano: And again, receive from your master. But let's talk about the puppets. >> Mark Walker: Sure. >> Michelle Stefano: So, who made yours and what does it entail and-- >> Mark Walker: Right. >> Michelle Stefano: -what makes a good puppet? >> Mark Walker: Well, I have several sets. I get all my sets are made in England. And I feel that they make the best puppets because they're not -- you could be a good carver, you could be an excellent carver, but still, not make a good puppet, because it's -- I feel that the best puppets come from people that are actually performing the show. They understand all the nuances with it, you know? Like it's good to have a puppet that's well-balanced. Some of the heads, you can't see it, but they'll drill holes in there and use filler material to make the head lighter. And you -- a person -- a regular carver, would not know that. You know? And when I had a new set of puppets made, I didn't -- my older sets were made with glossy paint. And I just thought -- I'd seen that like sometimes under light and it's that little bit of glare. So, I wanted semi-gloss paint on there. But again, these are these little things you pick up and then I also wanted all my puppets lined. That it wasn't just one piece of fabric. It was two sets in there. And these little tricks of the trade, you don't know, but you finish your puppet show, you turn the puppet inside out, and it's two reasons why. One is to dry the puppet out in case you sweat or whatever it is, but it's also to protect the puppet in transport. So, it's covered by cloth. Otherwise, the heads are hitting one another. So, it's these little things you don't think about too much. But I had my one set that I'm using now, was made my a wonderful carver. The name Jeff Felix [phonetic]. And -- where's he live? Oh, he lives right on Wembley [phonetic]. Yes, somewhere in England. And yes, he actually worked for Henson and Disney, and for Henson, I think he did the -- what was it? A couple Muppet movies. Muppets Treasure Island, and I forget what other one he did for them. But yes, but he -- he's a wonderful carver. Unfortunately, he had a stroke about a year ago. So, I'm not sure -- it's like we used to exchange emails. He can't even use email now. So, I haven't talked to him in a while. And I kind of miss talking to him, you know? But it's -- I try to communicate with this sister, so she can get the messages to him. ^M00:30:10 A couple of my puppets were made by another person from England, Brian Clarke [phonetic]. He actually made my puppet stage for me. He made the boxers. And he -- but he's a good carver. But there are other -- some of the performers that are out there, they're still -- you know, they're good carvers as well. But again, they understand it. And they can make the puppets. So. >> Michelle Stefano: And how about the theater set, which is what I would call it, but I've learned that it's called a fit-up. >> Mark Walker: A fit-up, that's correct. Yes. There's various different types. They have some that are very portable, where it's like you just set it up and, [inaudible], it'll set up in a matter of minutes. It's probably -- I think they're made of a very lightweight aluminum, and they could just set it up right away, you know? And I will say one thing that has happened. Years ago, most of the Punch and Judy performers worked standing up, and the puppets were worked -- they would have their hands up in the air. So, imagine, you're standing all the way up, and your -- the opening there, where the puppets are being seen, I mean, you're working like this the entire show. And I thought to myself, "There's no way I could do that." But more and more, that's being dropped, and most of the guys now are doing like I do, and it's where you work with the puppets in front of your face. So, I stand up, and they're right at this level, and I can see through the curtain. So, you can see if a puppet's drooping. You know, you try to keep some movement going. But more and more, that's what they're doing today. And you can get you know, the puppet stage as elaborate as you want. This was probably one of the deluxe made. And it was made by Brian Clarke. And I went over there, and I didn't know it, but Brian was testing me. I had the money. I have to give him credit. He said, I found out later, even though I had the money, he wasn't going to make this for me, unless I used the swazzle, because to him, that's the only true Punch and Judy man uses a swazzle for Punch. And he told Jeff, and I found out later, he said, "I'm not going to make it if he [inaudible]." So, he'd be willing to turn down a couple thousand dollars just on that principal alone. But that just shows you that's how serious he is. Some of the performers over there [inaudible]. >> Michelle Stefano: You've been bringing up so many names of performers from the past, also those who are still working or those who carve the puppets. How do you all know each other? What is the culture? Do you have meetings or--? >> Mark Walker: Well, there's a group out that's called the Punch and Judy Fellowship. And even that, that took me years to track that down. Of course, that was before the internet, you know? It's -- I had heard about it, and somebody told me about it. And then I had to write to somebody. They sent me the address. Of course, you go online today, everything's online. I said, there are no secrets in the world. But that is -- they have a publication called The Swazzle. But it's for the Punch and Judy Fellowship. And I actually -- I tracked down -- I went after with a vengeance, I got every issue of The Swazzle, dating back to like the early 70s. And I have a complete file of that. And -- it was a complete file. I was really getting into the periodicals. So, I got the animations. I think I have one of the largest Punch periodical collection in the world, because I've seen some of the other performers. I'm not saying I have the biggest book collection, but as far as the periodicals are concerned. There was another publication. It was called The Magical Digest. And it was owned by a guy named Oscar Oswald [phonetic], in England. And there were very few sets. And I know that I have a complete set of that. And actually, got a set from our friend John Stiles, too. You know, just a gift to him, because I'm really good friends with him. But that's how the -- more or less, it's communicating that way. And they have their puppet festivals over in England. They have a big May Day Festival. They used to have one in fall, but -- I think I was over there -- I can't recall. Was it a May Day Festival or the fall of the year? But I went over there, and you just hang with all the guys. I mean, they're very accepting. I mean, they kind of think, "Oh, this guy came from America," you know? And but there's guys that would travel from Italy, you know, all around, and so forth. So, I've gotten to know a lot of them. I've been to their houses too, a couple -- more than once. And but you know, you talk shop and stuff. But then after a while, they just become your friends. So, you don't even have to talk about puppets. Just, "Hey, what are you doing?" You know, "Ba, ba, ba," so forth. But, you know. >> Michelle Stefano: So, it sounds like Punch and Judy's thriving in the U.K. >> Mark Walker: In the U.K., yes. >> Michelle Stefano: How is it doing here in the U.S.? >> Mark Walker: Just okay. Part of the reason is, is the man isn't there. And I also think it's a marketing problem. And I've often had that -- I've known that for a long time. Most -- if you say Punch and Judy, you'll often hear two things. One, "What is that?" Or two, "Oh, that's a violent puppet show." That's usually what you hear. And so, it's very hard to overcome that. I mean, I've figured out some ways how to get around it, but -- and market myself, but it's also a little bit with political correctness as well. I know a performer, Fred Greenspan [phonetic], real nice guy. He lives in Palm Beach, and I was -- I stopped down to see him in January. And we were talking. And he left New York because of -- well, there was a variety of reasons, but he just said where he could no longer bring out a slapstick in the show. And all of a sudden, they didn't want to see, like a devil on the show, or the crocodile. And it was -- it's like after a while, it was like, "Give me a break." But like for me, I won't bend on that. You know? It's going to have those characters. And I will say this, I've learned some lessons. I've learned Punch and Judy is best not performed at daycare centers, and children museums, because what happens is you run into helicopter parents, and teacher -- educators. And it's like, "Oh, no. Joey can't fall down. Oh, no, no, don't fall down." You know? And it's just that where somebody does fall down, [inaudible], "Hey, maybe I won't run next time." You know? That type of thing. But it's -- by staying away from those two venues, I've had no complaints. None, at Festival. Alright, I did have -- alright, let me just say this. Once in a blue, blue moon. Once every five or six years. Once I was doing a -- performing a Christmas show and the children were laughing their heads off. And this lady came up to me in the back and she's pulling on my leg. Now, I'm doing a show and I've got a microphone on. And she goes, "Mr. Horn, Mr. Horn." And it's -- you know, so you've got these puppets up in action. "Yes, yes?" "You're scaring the kids." I'm like, "What? What are you talking about? They're out there laughing their heads off." So, at the end of the show, the -- what was it? The guy who hired me, I was talking with him and he said, "What did they say to you?" And I said, "Well, they said I was scaring the kids." And he said, "Scaring the kids?" He goes, "What is she talking about?" And I mentioned something to her about the Three Stooges, and she said, "Oh, I hate the Three Stooges." And I said that to him, and he goes, "What? She doesn't like the Three Stooges." He says, "I'm never going to let that idiot in here again." So, I mean, there's the kind of crazy stuff. But I have to say, that rarely, rarely ever happens. I hear no complaints at birthday party. None. None. I perform in Fells Point on a street. Of course, I never hear anything there. Festivals, I never hear any complaints. And I've performed in a lot of, you know, some museums, upscale museums, art museums, and so forth, and I don't get any complaints about it. But it's -- I think when you, again, when there's very young children, and you know, parents that hover over their children and so forth, and educators like that, I think sometimes you run into issues. So, I just try to avoid those issues, that's all. So, you know. >> Michelle Stefano: I know it's a Baltimore based tradition, this particular Horn show, but is there a connection to Fell's Point, the neighborhood on the harbor in the city? >> Mark Walker: Well, like I said, there was a show there. It was -- and I've -- I only found this out like about a year ago, and the fact that there was a Punch show down there in the 1700s. So, when I first started out, I thought, because I liked that area, I thought, "You know, I'm going to go down here. It's -- go down at Christmas time." And I don't know what possessed me to do this, because I wasn't connected with anybody. But I went and set up on a street corner. They had a parade of lighted boats, and I set up and did my show. I got a big reaction. So, then I became known down there and -- people, and then I got booked for the Fell's Point Fun Festival. So, this went on and on and on. And then, probably about five years ago, I thought, "I'm either going to take this show up a few notches, or I'm going to maybe stop performing down there altogether." So, I sent the letter out to a lot of people, what was it? Business leaders, people that owned properties and so forth and said, "Look, this is the dream. I want to come down here, and perform my show. And the whole idea is to have something for the children, and so forth, and you know, I'm willing to be, you know, as far as put a banner up saying my show is sponsored by you." So, I sent it out to all these individuals. But -- and there was this one gentleman, his name was Dominic Echenstein [phonetic]. He's from Switzerland. ^M00:41:01 And he had a -- there was a hotel, the Admiral Fell Inn [phonetic], and what happened was, is I -- he asked me to do some shows, and he -- then he said, he was going to pay me. And I said, "No, forget about it." And again, I thought he just worked there. I had no idea he owned the hotel and he was very wealthy. So, years later when I sent these letters out, I sent one to him, and Dominic called me up and said that he would like to sponsor my show. So, that's what happened. He sent me to England for two weeks, and I was able to get the show of my dreams built, and I perform now at Fells Point about two or three times a month. And I perform for free. And I actually have things that I -- have a banner that says, "Sponsored by Dominic Echenstein, the Admiral Fell Inn," and I give out these little finger puppets that has his name on it, and the hotel's name. So, it's a very good will gesture. And actually, they give me free valet parking, which is great. Oh, what's not to like? I pull up. They take my car. They park it. And they deliver it right to me at the end. I mean, this is like a -- you know, it's like, what a great gig this is, you know? So, I'm there for -- I think I've just completed my first year. I've got about another five to go. So, but I like doing it, and they like it. So, it's -- that's my connection with Fells Point, you know? >> Michelle Stefano: One of my favorite questions to ask masters in any tradition really, is why do they do it? Why do you -- I mean, just from listening to you all day today, it's obvious you have a lot of passion for not only magic, but obviously Punch and Judy shows as well, and the puppetry and all the knowledge and skills [inaudible] behind it. What is it? >> Mark Walker: I think the key thing for me is that, and you look around and see something that was around and then it no longer exists. I walk around some shopping districts that -- when I was a child. And it looked like a bomb went off. I mean, these stores no longer exist. A lot of things that I -- certain stores, people -- neighborhood characters, they're gone. And but when I saw this show, I just -- I thought to myself, "If I walk away from that, that show's gone forever." And you know, "I can't save the world, but I could save one thing." And that's, I think, what caused it. The other thing too is that, well, it's somewhere -- it was in the early 80's, that movie came out, Home Alone. And I remember, you couldn't get tickets to get into the movie theater. I had two nieces, and I took them in there. And unless you were there, you wouldn't understand it. I heard children laugh like I'd never heard them laugh before. And the reason for it, it was slapstick comedy. And I didn't know about Punch and Judy at that point, see? So, when -- and I always said, "That's the kind of laughs I really want to get in my show." It's one thing to get a couple laughs, but I really -- I thought, that true laughter here, little kids just spontaneous laughter, that's what I was aiming for. And when I saw George Horn's show years later, and I heard that, I said, "That's it. That's it." So, it was a combination of those two things, you know? Plus, I'm kind of like a nostalgic guy. I am. You know, I'll admit that, you know? >> Michelle Stefano: That's surprising. So, who's apprenticing to you? How is it going to be carried on? >> Mark Walker: I don't necessarily know. Now, two things have happened. One is, years ago, I was approached by Maryland Traditions. And my son, this is -- to me, this is an interesting story. So, somewhere -- well, he was born in '95. My son has actually seen my show -- my son, he'll be 23, but -- I would say my son has seen the show several thousand times, because he would go with me to every show he could, except birthday parties. >> Michelle Stefano: Wait, thousands? >> Mark Walker: Several thousand [inaudible]. >> Michelle Stefano: What? >> Mark Walker: And I actually have it on video somewhere, but when he was about 5 or 6, I brought the show back and I just put -- I put it there, without the top on. And he stood up on a chair and did my whole show, you know, for 15 minutes, from start to end. And he was saying some stuff -- I had a joke there about Viagra. He had no idea what I was talking about. But I mean, it was a joke and he did that. And every once in a while, he would say, "Dad, what's next?" And I would give him the line, and then he'd, [inaudible]. And he would do that. My wife and myself, we were just besides our self that he knew the show. So, when Maryland Traditions approached me, I just said, "You know, my son, you know, I'd be willing to teach the show to him." So, that's what happened. And we got this award, and actually, that's how I went to England. I took him and my wife, and we went to England and we went to a Punch and Judy festival, but he could do the show for a while. But his interest has kind of swayed a little bit. I mean, he's a chef now and -- but he does do standup comedy. I think I rubbed off to him in some respects, you know? I mean, I would like for him to do it, but I don't think you should force anybody. It's got to come from within. But I have actually -- I have -- I'm not releasing it any time soon, but I've written something about Punch and Judy, the American Punch and Judy Show, where I've taken -- I've recorded all of it, as far as like what you should do, you know, if you're working, you know, in this situation, and so forth. So, one day, that'll go to somebody. Maybe I'll teach a course in Punch and Judy. I don't know. But that's further down the road. You know? But I've taken those steps to do that. So, it's hopefully all is not lost, you know? So, I would hate to -- I wish somebody would have given me this, and that would have been what I started with. But a lot of it I had to learn on the fly. Yes. So. >> Michelle Stefano: I guess I'm dying to ask, "How racy can your show get?" >> Mark Walker: Well, they have -- racy. I mean, you could do with it -- I mean, I have some jokes -- I actually hold back some jokes. I'm not going to say them here. And I mean, I don't think they're necessarily bad. I mean, there are some that I've used, and again, I don't -- they're suggestive, innuendos, I would say. And but I've had a couple people, I mean just, almost spit their water out when they would hear lines, but you know, I try to be a little bit careful. They have these things -- I don't go to them, but they're called Puppet Slams. And they're actually meant for an all adult audience, where you will come and put on a puppet show, for adults, and you could use adult material. And I've been asked to do that, but I've just -- I don't know. I just -- I'm not really a -- I like Punch and Judy -- or let me just say this. I love the Muppets, but I would never want to do that type of show. I like marionettes. I would never want to do that show. It's just something about Punch and Judy, that just got to me. And I have no desire to do any other kind of puppet show, but Punch and Judy. I'll admit, it's -- you know, it's it for me, you know? So. >> Michelle Stefano: Just for later, when we get some good footage of all your items, I'd just like to ask you about your collection. How you've amassed it and what-- >> Mark Walker: Sure. >> Michelle Stefano: -what has driven it and what -- maybe some items you have in it that you could talk about now, and then we'll look at in a little bit. >> Mark Walker: Sure, yes. >> Michelle Stefano: Well, I mean, some of the things you know, a lot of the items -- well, thank goodness for eBay, you know? That's where I found some things. Other things, I -- this one item over there, it's a French print. It was the goofiest story. I was with my son in Harford County, Maryland. We went to an antique mall -- a mall with antiques. And I said to him, "Wouldn't it be funny if I found something with Punch and Judy?" And the next thing I know, I found this print. Then it had some kind of stain on it. So, I went to a professional restorer, called Garro [phonetic]. And all the magicians use Garro. And I said, "I want to put it on linen, but I want you to clean it up." And when they did, all the color came off of it. I almost died. I thought, I mean that's -- "I didn't want the color to come out. I just wanted you to clean it up." That took me eight years to find this. And I just determined to get this, and I went after it with a vengeance. And I was at a magic collectors' meeting, and I knew it was from France. And I was at this meeting, and there was this guy from France, and I said -- he had broken English and I talked with him, and he had it. But he didn't want to sell it. So, we went back and forth, back and forth, and finally, I think in January or something, he said, he'd be willing to sell it. My wife's not here, is she? Okay. But it was a lot of money. I was determined to get it, and he sold it to me, so I got it back again. But -- just don't tell my wife. Anyway, that's the story with that one, yes. So, I found that one. Other ones I found, you know, it's here and there. It's hit and miss. You know, one of the things, a Victorian scene, I actually bought that while I was in London on my honeymoon. Cecil Court, there was a place there, like a Pleasures and Past Times, or something like that. But I bought that one there. Other ones I picked up on eBay. A guy named Jonathan Reynolds who had a place called Dramatis Persona [phonetic], and he dealt in rare books -- all dealt with the theater and so forth. I don't know if Jonathan's still around, but that one there from Portugal, from 1828 with the Queen, Queen of Portugal, I got that from him. I think I only paid 300 for it, but I bet that thing's worth about a thousand dollars today. I've never seen another one. I've showed it to friends over in England, and they say, "Wow. What a nice piece," you know? But you know, it's like -- again, you pick them up here, you pick them up there, and all my walls on my house, I have them all displayed. >> Michelle Stefano: So, you kind of have like a -- a bit of a museum at home? >> Mark Walker: I mean, it's sort of like that, yes. But there's certain rooms my wife won't get me go into. She kicked me out of the powder room. I'm no longer in that one. I mean, when you come into the house, it's all there. You know? But it's -- she won't let me go -- I said, nothing in the kitchen, nothing in the powder room, and then there's like a family room there, nothing in there. But I have the parlor and the dining room and so forth, you know? Plus, I actually have lot of stuff. I just don't have it displayed, because it's -- and I have some filing cabinets. You know, I've got a lot of Punch and Judy in there, too. So, a lot of it's just packed away, you know? But it's -- anyway. >> Michelle Stefano: Why are you collecting now? This is my last question. Just in general. What's the need? >> Mark Walker: I don't think there's a need. I mean, you know, I've written a lot of articles about Punch and Judy, and I've written, you know, in the Swazzle publication. I wrote that whole story about George [inaudible], was such a huge hit with them. You could -- you will find nothing written about that man. Nothing. But I found his -- was it great nephew, or somebody? Or a relative. And that's how I was able to trace this. And that -- they still talk about this story, because he was considered to be a god over in -- probably one of the best Punch and Judy men in America. And -- but they still talk about him today over in England. So, it's like finding this stuff and writing these stories, and yes, it's like putting puzzles together, you know? You get a little bit of information, you do a little research. There's another guy, his name's Dagmar [phonetic], and there is a film clip, it was an opera, "Naughty Marietta," I think is the name of it. But there's a little scene in there, of him doing a Punch and Judy show. But it's probably only about two minutes long. But I've been doing some research on him. So, I'll probably write an article in the Swazzle about him. So, I mean, some of it's just to write articles or stuff. So, I mean, it's just collecting it and preserving it, saving it. You know? But yes, today, I don't know if I would do it all over again. But I have no regrets. None whatsoever, you know? So, I mean, cataloging it and so forth, so my wife knows what all the stuff is, you know? So, it's -- so she doesn't say, "Oh look, you know, a bunch of letters." Throw them out. It's like, "God, do you know what's in there?" You know, it's all these letters written by this guy. I mean, I've had letters -- I actually have a -- it wasn't Punch and Judy, but I've got a postcard from John Waters [phonetic]. He's talking about one of my books and saying how much he liked it, and you know, a couple letters from Teller, of Penn and Teller, how much of a fan he was of one of my books, and so forth. And I wanted to keep all that together, so my wife doesn't say, "Oh, look at this. Old correspondence," and just throw it out, you know?" So, yes, I mean it's -- you know? >> Michelle Stefano: So, anything you feel I should have asked you or you'd like to add? >> Mark Walker: Do you have time? You guys got time, or what? We running out of time? >> Could we just ask a quick question-- >> Mark Walker: Sure. >> -as a lay person? >> Michelle Stefano: Yes. >> And you speak directly what I ask? Can you just describe what a swazzle is? >> Mark Walker: Yes. So, a swazzle. It's about the size of a postage stamp. But just imagine two of them. Okay? And they're made of metal. They used to be made out of aluminum, until they found out you're not supposed to use that. So, the good ones are actually made out of silver. So, I actually had mine made over in England from a silversmith. And they're curved. And what happens is, is you use this -- it has to be cotton. It's a cotton twill tape, and you run it through there, around this other piece. You wrap it around. And then you tie a piece of thread around it. And then you dip it in water, and then put it in your mouth, and as you blow through it, it makes this sound. It's like a reed. You know what a reed is, right? And you speak, and you speak through that, and that's what gives you Mr. Punch's voice, you know? But they'll drive you crazy, the swazzles, because sometimes it's -- you'll have to make them three, four, five, six times. You try it. It doesn't -- they say the good ones is that when you blow, where you can get the right tone from the front and the back. And if you can get that, that's a good sound. But and then the other thing is you have to, usually when you're making it, you're actually dipping that twill tape, it's a -- like a herringbone, cotton, twill tape or something. But you're going to have to dip it in hot water. So, you -- and that's -- and then after it shrinks a little bit, that's when you use it to make your swazzle. But that's what gives you Mr. Punch's voice. Yes. >> Michelle Stefano: And how long do they last? >> Mark Walker: A good while. A good while, you know? You know, I should actually have spares with me. You know, they say that you should have two or three spares. I don't. And I feel ashamed, because -- I haven't swallowed one yet, and a lot of people have. And they actually say you're not a good Punch and Judy performer until you swallow one. But I'm kind of glad that -- I hope I go throughout my life without swallowing one of those, you know? We won't get into what you have to do afterwards, but yes, yes. That's about it with that. I have some stories if you want [inaudible]? >> Michelle Stefano: I want to hear stories, yes. >> Mark Walker: Alright, okay. Some stories. I had a call once to do a Punch and Judy show for a -- this guy called me up and said, "Hey, I want you to do -- it's a birthday party." And I said, "Okay." And I said -- he says, "My son, though has a handicap." He didn't say what it was, and I didn't ask him. And I went to his house, and he was -- they were very wealthy. He was a doctor. And his son, I guess it's okay to say it here, right? His son had no ears. And that was his thing. But his father made for him, some kind of device that went over his head, like a headset, so his son could hear. And during the show, his son was acting up. And afterwards, the father said, "I have never seen my son get so excited about a show in all my life." You know? And it kind of touched me when he did that, you know? And that was one experience that I had. And another time, some guy said, "I have this event. We're celebrating our 100th anniversary. I'd like for you to come out to perform." And I said, "Sure." I said, "Well, what kind of event is it?" And he goes, "Well, we're a funeral parlor, and we're celebrating our 100th anniversary." So, okay, okay. So, it was in the fall of the year, and I was coming to the event, and I said, "Oh, where will I perform?" He goes, "Oh, outside." I said, "Okay." So, I was coming to the event, and it was pouring down rain. ^M01:00:15 And I'm thinking, "Oh, he's going to cancel for sure." So, I get there, and I said, "Well, I guess you're going to cancel?" And he goes, "No, no, no. We're going to move it indoors." So, I went in, and that's where I was performing it, in one of the viewing rooms, my Punch and Judy show. And for the longest time, I didn't want to ask the guy, like you know, where's all the bodies, you know? But because -- I found out later, because it was their 100th anniversary, they had closed the shop down for a week, so they could repaint and put you know, new carpet in and so forth. But, I always thought that was a good one. I had one booking that I did for many years. I did it for about five or six years. I was actually hired by a group of lawyers. And I won't tell you the name of the program, but I would perform for very, very good money, three shows a year. And then what would happen is, the people -- the children would come in and watch my show, and then they would leave the room, and they would be interviewed. And the whole purpose was, they were being -- they were talking to lawyers, people studying law. And it was to test their memories, to see how much that they could remember. And it was basically to check, I guess for, if they were -- like child abuse or something. And like how good was their memory? And the people interviewing me, had not seen the show. They were asking them, and then they're saying, "Oh, this crocodile came in. There was this monkey." But that was the whole idea. They were -- they talked about the magic show, but the Punch and Judy as well. But, I really thought that was a pretty good one. And another time, a couple years back, it was Captain -- what was it, Captain John Smith, was that it? But they had a big celebration. What was it, 300 years, 350 years? And while I was there, they put me at this spot, and said, "This is where I want you to perform." And what happened was, I was next to a gallows. And they would bring a guy up, and hang this person. Of course, he had a brace on and everything, but they would bring him up on the thing, put him up there, pull the thing, and the guy would just drop and hang. And then they would say, "And now we're going to have our children's entertainment." So, I followed that. And I just thought that that -- how bizarre is that, you know? And it's like, how do you follow that? You know? But that was just another one of those crazy things, you know? But I've had all kind of like, crazy things like that happen. And there were fun things too. And I actually think that's another reason why I like to perform. I get to meet people, like you guys. And it's, go places I would never go otherwise. And anyway, that's part of the fun business of it. You know, so. >> Michelle Stefano: Well, thank you so much. >> Mark Walker: Thank you. >> Michelle Stefano: That was absolutely wonderful. >> Mark Walker: Well, thank you. So. >> This has been a presentation of the Library of Congress. Visit us at Loc.gov.