^B00:00:13 >> Teri Sierra: Hi, it's a very exciting afternoon. My name is Teri Sierra. And I'm the chief of the Serial and Government Publications Division, which is the home of all the Library's comic books. And just to put a plug in for it, we have more than 158,000 issues of comic books, which makes us probably the largest repository of comic books in the world. So, pretty exciting. And. So, I'm not here to brag about this or anything like that. Here, and thank you for joining us this afternoon for a conversation with Jaime Hernandez and Gary Groth, seated over there. Yay. ^M00:00:57 [ Applause ] ^M00:01:01 And this is actually in connection with a new exhibit, Comic Art, 100 Years of Panels and Pages. And they wrote me remarks. So, I have to read this part. Considers how the visual narrative story telling styles of comic art have evolved from panels in early newspapers to contemporary comic images. So, there you have it. I just want to say that all, everything that's on the exhibit is either from the Prints and Photographs Division or from our division, Serial and Government Publications. And so, before I introduce our speakers, I must say thank you to a few people. The Swann Foundation for Caricature and Cartoons. And, of course, the Small Press Expo. Thank you, Warren Bernard. [Applause]. Yes. And thank you. And thank you for, for your donation of the 1988 copy of Love and Rockets to the Library. We'll promise to take very good care of it. I also want to thank the Exhibits Office for doing the fabulous job that they always do. And our curators for prints, Sara Duke and Martha Kennedy, for our division. Georgia, who's in the back. Georgia Higley. And Megan Halsband, who had to go take care of a sick kid. So, let's see, let's talk about Jaime. Jaime and his brothers, Mario and Gilbert, created Love and Rockets in the 1980's punk scene in California. I wasn't there, so I cannot see how. You were, huh? Was it a good one? It was good. Okay. We've established that. So, they came up with the characters of Maggie and Hopey. You know all about that. And they are two very strong Latina women, which I kind of like. There aren't too many of those in cartoons or in comic books, for that matter. So, and the rest pretty much is history. From 1982, Fantagraphics, Gary Groth, the publisher and owner, has been publishing. But one of the things that I noted as I was getting ready to come over here is that there was a little lapse there between 2013 until now. But it is on Amazon the new Love and Rockets. And 2019. And they have aged. Both Maggie and. It's fascinating. They have gray hair and. Or gray streaks. They're a little pudgy, a little softer than they were. So, it's kind of fun. And I appreciate that Jaime did that. I also found, before I ask him to come up, that Gary, and he confirmed it, is the 2014 winner of the Stranger Genius Award. I thought that was amazing and fascinating. Stranger Genius, hmm. Anyway. [Laughter]. There's enough. Well, you're in the right crowd. So. [Laughter]. Okay. So, I have to tell you that there will be a period of Q&A after. And you see the cameras. This is full disclosure. You'll be recorded. I don't want to discourage you from asking questions. But you'll be recorded. And also, I want to say that the exhibit is closed because we close exhibits early. We don't stay open late. But it'll be here until. ^M00:04:55 [ Inaudible ] ^M00:05:01 Phase two. Okay. So, you have time to come back and take a good look at this. But in the meantime, because we couldn't get you to the exhibit, Georgia brought out a whole bunch of comic books that you're very welcome to take a look after the program. So, okay, having said that, let's bring Jaime and Gary to the podium, to the stage. ^M00:05:24 [ Applause ] ^M00:05:35 >> Jaime Hernandez: Hi, everybody. >> Gary Groth: Well, thank you. ^M00:05:40 [ Laughter ] ^M00:05:44 The slide show officially begins. >> Jaime Hernandez: That's my mom's back yard. ^M00:05:48 ^M00:05:52 >> Gary Groth: You know, I wasn't aware you were going to introduce Jaime. But I wrote an introduction that I think I'll read anyway. It gives a little bit more information about Jaime. Jaime Hernandez was born in Oxnard, California, where he grew up with his four siblings. One of whom, Gilbert, would also go on to become a groundbreaking cartoonist. Their mother was an avid comic book reader in her youth. And it was from her infectious enthusiasm that Jaime began his appreciation of such cartoonists as Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko. And such comics as Dennis the Menace and the Archie line. Both parents encouraged him to draw from an early age. And in the late 70's, the punk phenomenon inflicted, inflected his life in drawing. And in 1981, he and two brothers, Gilbert and Mario, self-published a 32-page zine titled, Love and Rockets. The next year, 32 pages of comics were added to it. And it was relaunched as Love and Rockets Number One. Love and Rockets has been published continually since then. For the last 38 years, Jaime has spent, has used it as the place he can write and draw stories without editorial interference. Where he puts himself in a line every issue, creating work that stands or falls on his singular artistic vision. Jaime's earliest stories took place among the trappings of sci-fi and comic book iconography. There were dinosaurs. There were rocket ships. But they already reflected the interior lives of his characters. That, at least, is what I picked up, picked on, picked up on from the very first story. In the short order, those fantasy elements banished. And the [inaudible] reflected the more realistic one he, himself, lived in. His two most popular characters, Maggie and Hopey, started off as cute, punk girls. And then, grew older. And to the consternation of his less discerning fans, they gained weight, entered middle age. Most of his characters, and if I may say so, his most interesting characters are women. This too is unprecedented. His depictions of Maggie and Hopey and his other female characters were so accurately realized that, if I remember correctly. And Jaime can correct me if I'm wrong. I hope I'm not because this is a good story. When he was still relatively little known, many of his readers thought he was a woman. And were surprised to learn that he wasn't. >> Jaime Hernandez: They thought I was Jaime. Yeah. [Laughter]. >> Gary Groth: I thought this case of mistaken identity was the highest compliment. A testament to the empathy that's at the center of Jaime's art. Narrative comics up to then had a rich and illustrious history of storytelling in many modes and genres. There was surrealism, fantasy, satire, domestic comedy, slapstick, melodrama, adventure, political commentary, existential searching, soap opera, noir, romance, autobiography. But the distinction I want to make with what went before is that Jaime and his brother, Gilbert, in his Palomar series, conveys the intimacy of human experience in a wholly fictionalized world, teaming with characters that live on the page. And does it using the unique language of comics. It would be only a slight exaggeration to say that Jaime Hernandez changed the face of the comics medium. Let's welcome Jaime. ^M00:09:13 [ Applause ] ^M00:09:21 So, I'd like to start off with a little history lesson. And Jaime started drawing Love and Rockets 38 years ago, if you can believe that. I'm not sure. I'm not sure you can believe that. So, I'd like, I'd like to ask you, first of all, if you could talk a little about what, what comics was like to you then? With the whole idea of drawing comics and what, how you saw the profession. And what it was like entering that profession in 1982. And maybe contrast that with the vastly different landscape today. >> Jaime Hernandez: Well, yeah, the. While the. The early 80's, what, 82. There was no alternative market. There was no, no people. Artists with their kind of their personal expression didn't have really anywhere to go or not very many places. ^M00:10:25 We. It was basically the. It was a time where Gilbert and I didn't like what we were seeing in comics. So, simply, we just did our own. Had no idea if we would be published anywhere because I didn't know, didn't know where to go. It was. So, we printed our own, which I didn't know was a weird thing to do. [Laughter]. You know, but. And. >> Gary Groth: That's right. There wouldn't even have been that much self-publishing at that time. >> Jaime Hernandez: No. >> Gary Groth: Very little, yeah. >> Jaime Hernandez: But we kind of took it from the days, like when you were young doing your fanzine back in the early 70's. That, that where people were just doing their own thing. And. And. And then, with, with our punk mentality, it was kind of like, well, we're going to do it anyway, you know. We don't care what anybody's going to think. And we, we. So, we did. We published our own. And didn't know how to sell it because we didn't know anything about the market. >> Gary Groth: How did you sell it? What you'd do with these? >> Jaime Hernandez: I think. >> Gary Groth: How many copies did you print? >> Jaime Hernandez: We printed, it was supposed to be about 1,000. But a lot of them were double pages. So, we. It was a lot less than 1,000. And we didn't know what to do. So, we would go to conventions in L.A., drive to L.A. and go to small conventions. And just ask people, like what they thought or what. Do you think we could sell this? And they'd go, scratch their head and go, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, sure. And, and we didn't know how to do a mail order thing or anything like that. And, and it wasn't until Gilbert sent a, sent a copy to you guys to be reviewed in the Comics Journal. And thinking you guys would hate it, but maybe free publicity kind of thing and advertising. >> Gary Groth: Because we hate it so much. [Laughter]. >> Jaime Hernandez: And yeah. And he mailed it to you. And we didn't even think about it after that. And we just went about our regular lives. And then, you wrote us back and said, you liked it. We were like. Okay. Simple. I mean, you know. It was kind of overnight kind of thing. >> Gary Groth: And without, and without ever having heard of who they were. I mean, I had no idea who they were. But I did get this, this self-published, you know, comics magazine in the mail. And I, I, I liked it so much, I wrote a three-page review of it in the Comics Journal raving about it. Because it was so enormously fresh. And the kind of comics that Jaime is talking about, that dominated the field were either newspaper strips or Marvel and DC Comics. And there were a handful of other comics being published. You know, some of the underground comics were still being published. But, but very few. Jaime, we want to talk about. So, I want to talk about the work. I mean, you, you and, you know, Gilbert obviously felt confident enough to draw 32-pages of comics. Can you talk a little about how you, what you experienced up until that time? And what your interest in, in comics was. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. Well, you know, we grew up in a house of comics because Mom encouraged it instead of discouraged it. And, you know, the oldest ones Mario, then Gilbert. They go, let's draw our own. You know, and we'd do our own as kids. And then, I would just follow what the older brothers did. So, we were all drawing comics. You know, didn't know how to tell a story, didn't know how to draw. But just, we would just do it. And as we got older, Gilbert and I kept at it. Other siblings started to back out. You know, they wanted to do, have real lives or whatever. >> Gary Groth: Less fanatical. [Laughter]. >> Jaime Hernandez: And. But Gilbert and I kept at it. And we wanted to be published. And like I was saying about the 70's when the fanzines, like yours, and stuff were like, hey, if you give us some illustration, we'll print it. And so, we thought at least we'd be published, even if, even if this fanzine, you know, has 25 followers. At least we'd just see ourselves in print. And so, we were doing that. And pretty soon we were drawing more and more stuff that was not going into, not going into these fanzines. We were just drawing it for ourselves after a while. And we were learning, we were honing our craft. And learning how to use pen and ink and all that. And, and it wasn't until Mario saw what we were doing. And he goes, what the hell is this? And we were just like, oh, well, we want to do comics. You know, it was just, just pretty simple. Pretty like naïve, you know. And, and so, it was as, as I started getting older, like out of high school, I started to create these characters. But they were for myself, you know. Like, like this Maggie character, she started out first space mechanic kind of thing. And then, and then as I started to get into things, like the punk scene and stuff, I cut her hair, changed her clothes. And she started to like change, you know. >> Gary Groth: To reflect more your own experience. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. Yeah. And then, that was when we started to realize, like, okay we're Mexican guys from Southern California. We live in this really cool culture that most of the world doesn't know about. We know. We were in this punk scene that a lot of people didn't know about. And we were like, well, let's do stories about this stuff, what we, hanging out. Instead of trying to create our superhero worlds or whatever. And pretty soon, we just realized what a, what a wealth of culture we had to, to tell these stories. And it was still kind of like, I don't know if anyone's going to get this. But I'm happy doing this, you know. It was just like, it was almost like, well, I don't care what anyone thinks. I'm just going to do this because I'm happy. It makes me happy. And maybe one day it'll be printed. Maybe not, you know, but. And I started to get into the characters. And I really liked like the Maggie and Hopey thing of the, the two characters bouncing off each other, kind of like my, my punk Betty and Veronica kind of. And, and, and then, just creating characters that were like friends of mine from back in our town. Telling stories about, you know, just about like, remember when our grandmother told us that story about the ghost and this and that. You know, just all that stuff was just so rich to us, but. And we were realizing that, you know, a lot of the world doesn't know about this at the time. You know, this was, what? Late 70's, early 80's and. Because I mean what you were getting on TV and stuff, like. >> Gary Groth: I was going to say, you're not talking about just comics. You're talking about media [inaudible]. >> Jaime Hernandez: I'm talking about everything. Movies, films, TV, comics. You're just like, none of this is there. So, it was kind of easy to just throw all these characters out there, you know. Well, let's make some of them gay. Okay. Let's make some of them this, that. Let's do a character like this. And it was just almost like open canvas, like, like, nobody knows this. So, let's just throw this out there. >> Gary Groth: And that was a great impendence to depict, you know, a social realm that was not being depicted. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. Yeah. And, and because those, that stuff I grew up with was writing its own story. You know, I didn't have to think of any cosmic thing, you know, going on. It was just like, well, these guys, you know, went out cruising. And then, the cops chased them. And then, someone got knifed. And, you know, it was just like, oh, and then, they got drunk. Then, this. And then, they went to go see bands and stuff. And it was just like, I've got so much to do, you know. And that's fun. We were having fun doing it, you know. Anyway. >> Gary Groth: Well, now your very. In your very first story that I remember in that first issue of Love and Rockets that you self-published, it was the, it was a Hopey and Maggie story. And what I, you know, one of the things that took me about it was that there was such an open sensuality about it. I mean, I mean, they were, they were, they were both sexual creatures. But there wasn't a kind of didacticism about it. You weren't pushing that agenda. It was just, it just seemed to be part of their life. ^M00:20:09 And it was something that I hadn't, I had not seen in comics. Now, underground comics, they smash taboos. I mean, they were all about sex, transgression, violence. They were political in their content. But what they, but what they weren't, they didn't, they didn't do casual slice of life dramatic stories. I mean, they were just much more, they were, you know, they were out there just trying to smash the taboos that preventing comics from depicting this stuff previously. So, your first two, your very first story started Maggie and Hopey. I think. I don't know if Rand was even in that story. But, you know, so many of your characters. Women dominate your stories. So, can you explain why you made that decision from the beginning? >> Jaime Hernandez: That one's always hard to answer because it's got a million answers. You know, I could say, well, I love women. I love to draw women. I like to write women. So, I'm going to come up with a new one that I never have said. [Laughter]. I just wanted more women in comics. I was reading comics where the women didn't say anything. You know, they, or they didn't have room to say, say anything. And I was like, well, I want to. Well, I want them to have more to say, you know. Because, I mean, I remember, you know, growing up on Betty and Veronica comics, Archie comics. And they had plenty to say. You know, I mean, yeah, the stories were pretty simple. And there, you know, who's going to get Archie this time or whatever. But it was still this kind of thing where Betty and Veronica ran that comic. You know, they ran the thing. And I wasn't seeing that after a while. And, and so, it was kind of like, have my cake and eat it too. Just like, oh, I get to draw women. I get to write them. I get to, I get to give them their space and stuff. And, and it's. I mean, I still don't know really why. But I, I just like it. And I like writing women. And I like making women come to life in my comics. And. >> Gary Groth: You know, even your early sketchbooks were filled with drawings of women. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. >> Gary Groth: Now, it's one thing to like to draw women. I mean, there are a lot of cartoonists in the past you can say who like to draw women, who like pinups and so on. But it's another thing to take that leap and want to explore their inner lives. And that's what you did, I mean, if not immediately, very early on. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah, yeah. >> Gary Groth: What was the? >> Jaime Hernandez: I, I just, I remember one thing about, you know, where I would do a drawing of a woman in a spacesuit or a woman barbarian with a sword or something. And I remember drawing it and then just going, there's something missing. There's something that I don't, I don't think this picture stands on it's own. And I started to realize. Because I don't know this person, you know. And I found out the more I did the comics that I was able to know who these people were. And it just made the drawing just seem more. And I was never happy with just a pinup, just doing a pinup of a girl in a bikini or something, you know. So, I don't know. That has something [inaudible]. >> Gary Groth: Because a lot of. Jaime and I read a lot of the same comics. You know, Marvel and DC. And they, and they were all pretty one dimensional. So, it was a huge leap for you to want to dig into the, into the lives of these characters. And to the interior lives of these characters. And their relationships. Were you, I mean, were you conscious that this is, you know, this was a change? I mean, this was a departure from what had previously appeared in comics? >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah, in a way. Another thing was I remember I was out of high school, no future. And I started to think about why do I like these comics? Why do I go back to the comics I grew up reading as a kid? I go, why do I like this artist better than this artist? Why do I? And I just started to, to, to really embrace who these artists were. Even if like this Archie artist was doing the house style, you could tell they had something coming out underneath, from underneath. The Dennis the Menace artists who were ghosting [inaudible]. There were certain artists where you were like, but these guys have something going on. They know how to make this stuff move. And. >> Gary Groth: Would that have been true of Kirby and Ditko, as well? >> Jaime Hernandez: Sure. Sure. I mean, after Kirby and Ditko left. >> Gary Groth: Yeah. >> Jaime Hernandez: You know. [Multiple speakers]. They lost me. >> Gary Groth: You saw something that was bubbling up beneath the stories. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. Yeah. >> Gary Groth: [Inaudible] the surface. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. And after. And also, at that time, I was really into creating characters to dialogue back and forth. I remember being obsessed with the book at the time, Alice in Wonderland, because of Alice's arguments with the characters. Like, arguing with the caterpillar. Trying to get answers from the caterpillar. And he's just screwing with her, you know. And, and I just remember that back and forth. And I started to really get into that. And so, I really liked creating characters to just. Like I had my Maggie, I needed my Hopey for them to bounce off each other. And then, I would try to put other characters in there. But their, their personalities were so strong that the characters just kind of stood back while Maggie and Hopey was just like steamrolling, you know. And I just, I just really found that was my calling, that about these characters had to have these lives. And put as much of me into it, you know. Even if they weren't me. >> Gary Groth: Right. Right. >> Jaime Hernandez: You know. >> Gary Groth: I have to mention something because this is driving me crazy. Which is that the imagery I'm seeing is squashed. [Laughter]. You might have noticed that, Jaime. So, it does not reflect. I don't know if this is making you cringe [laughter], as much as it's making me cringe. But it doesn't really reflect. >> Jaime Hernandez: No, it, but it brings up that maybe they don't know that these aren't. [Laughter]. >> Gary Groth: Well, I wanted to point that out because this does not reflect Jaime's drawing. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah, they kind of. >> Gary Groth: They are. They're virtually, the pages are virtually square on the screen. I'm not sure how that happened because when I prepared the PowerPoint, you know, they were, they were full size. But anyway, I just wanted to let you know that because it's making me [laughter] crazy. You know, looking at, looking at the pages, I'm abandoning the questions I wrote, which is the best kind of interview. But looking at the pages on the screen, it occurs to me that you almost had to create your own language to depict these characters because, you know, on the all, all of the templates before. I mean everything from, you know, Winsor McCay and George Herriman to Charles Schultz to Jack Kirby, I mean they do, they were designed to depict certain things. You know, with McCay it was like a, you know, a surrealistic view of, of the world. And with Kirby it was, you know, it was action and so forth. But. First of all, do you agree with that? >> Jaime Hernandez: Sure, sure. >> Gary Groth: You had to. I mean because, you know, there are pauses in your work. There are silent panels in your work. There are, you know, there's a unique pacing and visual rhythm to your work. And I guess I'm not sure right now [inaudible] when, you know, when you really started. I mean, I guess it was a project you started from the very beginning. And, and just established at some point. But I mean, I remember even [inaudible] rooms, which is very early. Which would probably be something 1980. >> Jaime Hernandez: Four. >> Gary Groth: Four, yeah. I mean that, that reflected a sophisticated sense of your project, like what you were doing. Were you aware that you had to adapt all of your knowledge and experience of comics to your own needs and to you, were you conscious of doing that? Or did it, was it just a intuitive? >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. Well, intuitive. But, but I do remember. And this, this is, sounds really corny. But it's true. I do remember going, okay, we're doing a comic here. And we're drawing this for the world. We're not drawing this for our little group of friends. We're not drawing this just for us anymore. We have to connect somehow, you know. I mean, for the most part, we got to bring them to us. But. And so, I remember going, okay, it's time to be a grownup. I mean it sounds silly. But it was like, a time to be grownup. I have to stand behind this stuff now. I have to. So, I have to find a way to have fun with this. But also, give it to people who know nothing of what this is. And make them understand. And make them, I don't know. Kind of meeting them halfway. But yet, I'm still the boss, you know, kind of. [Laughter]. ^M00:30:24 >> Gary Groth: You didn't want to abandon your own integrity. But you wanted to communicate this. >> Jaime Hernandez: Sure, sure. But I didn't want, I wanted people on the other end of the earth to read my comics. >> Gary Groth: Right. >> Jaime Hernandez: I didn't think they would get there. But that's how, that was my. >> Gary Groth: But they did. >> Jaime Hernandez: Approach. And so, it was, it was kind of like, okay, I've got this thing. It's time to be a grownup, you know. It's time, time to be responsible for [inaudible]. >> Gary Groth: And keep in mind, when Love and Rockets Number One came out, I think you were 23 years old. >> Jaime Hernandez: Twenty-two. >> Gary Groth: Twenty-two years old. [Laughter]. >> Jaime Hernandez: But, yeah. >> Gary Groth: Yeah. So, at some point it was time to be a, become a grownup. >> Jaime Hernandez: But, yeah, it was. I mean it's, it's when I tell the truth about my comic, it sounds so simple because it is. It's just like, like, okay, I'm drawing for people that I don't know. Alright, I better be responsible adult now, you know. [Laughter]. You know, I don't know if I can do that. But I can try. [Laughter]. >> Gary Groth: Right, right. Now, this is fascinating. This is what's being depicted on the screen is. Maybe you can, maybe you can actually tell them what that is. >> Jaime Hernandez: This is, this is usually how a comic starts. I start writing, I start just writing dialogue between characters. And then, it starts to gel, you know. And then, I change things, scratch things out. I still do it like this. I don't do it on a computer. And then, I start to, those little boxes are the page layouts, you know. You know, and I'm constantly changing and. And then, I tear that page out. And I start rewriting it, keeping what I like best, you know. Sometimes. Sometimes the script only goes halfway through the page. And then, I start changing it when I put it on the final paper. >> Gary Groth: Right, right. I was going to ask you how much you change when you're, when you have the breakdown on the page and [inaudible]. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. And it's, and it's so like organic and, and. Let's put it this way. I could never teach this stuff in a class because they would just walk out halfway through class. Just go, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. >> Gary Groth: Right, right. The professorship is not in your future. [Laughter]. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah, exactly. >> Gary Groth: So, when you, when you start a story, do you start? And maybe it changes. But do you start with an image? Do you start with a premise? Do you? How do you, how do you generate? >> Jaime Hernandez: It's different every time. Sometimes I seriously want to draw a character in a raincoat walking in the rain. And I go, okay, what's the story? They're going somewhere. They have to go pay a bill. Something's going to stop them from getting there. Something is going to, you know. Or sometimes it's just, or sometimes it's like, well, right now, Maggie's mad at Hopey. Alright. So, she's in a crabby mood. This story moves where she's, it's her bad attitude. You know, that will write something. Sometimes, you know, it just. Whatever. Whatever will get it to the page fastest because I'm not, I'm not good at concepts. So, these characters have to move me there. They have to. >> Gary Groth: And when you say, you're not good at concepts, what do you mean? >> Jaime Hernandez: I couldn't write a whole story and then put the characters in it. That's. Or I can every once every five years. But I can't for a comic that's supposed to be semiregular. >> Gary Groth: Okay. >> Jaime Hernandez: I kind of have this pep talk with my characters. And go, alright, who's got a story for me? Maggie is in most of the stories because I know her so well that she'll write a whole story. And she'll write. I'll start with a four-page story. And she'll turn it into a 100-page story because I just know her so well. And I love watching her go from point A to point B. There's just something about her character that I know so well that she'll do it for me. >> Gary Groth: Okay. Speaking of knowing characters so well, you started off with a handful of characters. Hopey, Maggie, Rand. And then, and then, you expanded. And now, Jaime has more characters than I can count. I mean, you have a lot of characters. [Laughter]. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. >> Gary Groth: And you have to keep track of all of these characters. And all of these characters have different points of view. And different inflections. And different attitudes. And different personalities. Is this all rattling around in your head? Or do you have a, you know, enormous chart at home to remind you of what? How do you keep track of? >> Jaime Hernandez: I try. >> Gary Groth: I mean, we're talking about a lot of characters. And a lot of highly particularized characters. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. I, I try to keep a chart. But I lose the chart. [Laughter]. You know. >> Gary Groth: You try to keep it in your head? >> Jaime Hernandez: So, it's mostly in my head. >> Gary Groth: Yeah. >> Jaime Hernandez: If I go, okay, who's going to be in this story? Daphy. Okay, I know Daphy. I know what she would do in this story. She won't work because she will stop the story halfway through. Who would I put? Oh, if I put Hopey in there, she's going to make it go a lot further, you know. And it's just what these characters will do and won't do, you know. >> Gary Groth: And Daphy would be better for a different type of story. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah, yeah. And sometimes I have to create a whole new character because none of them will fit. Or I'm not in the mood to, like I've got other plans for this character. If they. If I put them in this story, they're going to take it this way. And I don't want this character to do that. >> Gary Groth: Right. >> Jaime Hernandez: So, I'll come up with a, I'll create a new character. What haircut haven't I used? You know, what [laughter], what, what. Yeah, what. >> Gary Groth: Or body language have you. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah, body language. What. Where does this person work, you know? Or, you know, what's their lifestyle like, you know? They don't even like Maggie and Hopey. Good. Perfect. You know, deflect that, you know. Yeah. And like I say, it's all in my head. And sometimes I have to go back and reread stuff. And I make a lot of mistakes sometimes. Like, ooh, that's not what she said back in 20 years ago. Oof, what do I do about that? Sometimes I've written my best stories from accidents, from mistakes because I spent, I wrote a whole story to make it seem like it was on purpose. >> Gary Groth: Ahh. >> Jaime Hernandez: [Laughter]. And I found out, hey, I have a knack for this, of faking it. [Laughter]. >> Gary Groth: That's great. That's great. >> Jaime Hernandez: But like, my, one of my favorite recent stories, Browntown. That's in Love Bunglers. Came out of a, one huge mistake I made. And that was I created Maggie's family to be five siblings. I went back to an issue way back in the early 80's. And they said, six. And I went, oh, oh, oh, six. Six. What do I do? Well, what happened to that sixth person? Did they die? No, Maggie never talks about a death in her family. Never talk about. And so, at the last minute, I had a character say, oh, but. And then, there's Calvin, who ran away when he was young. Got a girl pregnant or something. And I go, okay, that's the sixth person. And I went, why was he in trouble? You know, what? Okay, so, he was the troubled kid. What made him the troubled kid? Why was he? How does a person oust someone from a whole family, especially a close-knit family? And I was like, okay, okay. So, Calvin. I wrote the character, Calvin out of that mistake. And I wrote Browntown from his childhood with Maggie and the rest of them growing up. And, and I basically told the story of how he kind of started to be troubled, a troubled kid. [Inaudible]. Yeah. >> Gary Groth: There's. There are a couple of pages from Browntown, which is, I think, were Jaime's best, best stories. You know, you talked about how you started a story. And it, in some of your stories, your stories from long ago, like Wig Wam Bam, or The Death of Speedy. Those looked almost more plotted out than what I just read recently in your last two books, Tonta and Is This How You See Me. Which Jaime's last two books, I wouldn't say comprise graphic novels. But they are, but they are composed of short stories from one page to 20 pages long. And they appeared in the serialized Love and Rockets. And then, we collected them into, I think, what legitimately comprises a graphic novel. But does that give you the latitude you can do one page, or you can do 10 pages, or you can do five pages? Does that give you the? I mean, but it's one story. One of the books is basically the punk reunion. Maggie and Hopey go back, I don't know, 25 years, I think it is. And does that give you the latitude not to have to plot from A to Z? And to, and to, and to make it more organic? ^M00:40:47 >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. >> Gary Groth: Long story. I mean, it's 100 pages. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. I don't, I don't write the whole story. >> Gary Groth: Right. So, you [multiple speakers]. >> Jaime Hernandez: I maybe know the ending. Or the main problem in the story. But I started out pretty simply. And then, watch it happen, what the characters take it, so. And then, I discover a lot of things halfway through about this story. And then, by the time it's done, I turn it into this structure that makes it seem like I wrote a whole story. But I, I like, okay, it started off simple. And it built. Well, why don't I kind of round it up here, here. And then, a little trickle down. It's just kind of a feeling of what feels right. >> Gary Groth: Yeah. Yeah. >> Jaime Hernandez: And. So, yeah. Sorry, I'm not looking at this side of the room. [Laughter]. >> Gary Groth: We're going to be taking questions in a few minutes. So, anyone if you want to think about questions. Just in a couple minutes, we'll start taking them. You know, you made a decision relatively early on, for which. And again, correct me if I'm wrong. But I think there was a little bit of a backlash where the girls started getting older. And they started getting, Maggie, Maggie got heavier. And I think we got letters. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. >> Gary Groth: From that. Like, what are you doing? You know, we like young, slim. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah, they love. >> Gary Groth: Right. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. >> Gary Groth: So, what was behind that decision? I mean that was clearly a conscious decision to change these characters and to. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. >> Gary Groth: I mean, you could've kept them young forever. And that was also unprecedented in comics. There was only one other comic that I can, I know of, Gasoline Alley. >> Jaime Hernandez: Right. >> Gary Groth: Where the characters grew old in real time. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. I think part of it was Gilbert was really into Gasoline Alley. But another part was it just seemed natural to age them because of watching family grow old. You know, watching. You know, I grew up in a family where all the relatives and all the aunts and the grandmother told us stories about the past. Mom always told us stories about growing up in Texas, being barefoot poor. And it sounded like the coolest thing on earth, you know. And so, there was a thing about. >> Gary Groth: But you had this sense of time. >> Jaime Hernandez: A sense of time. And even as a little kid, I was, what? Six, seven years old talking about the old days. [Laughter]. You know, like, remember when we were little. And I'm talking about two years before. But it just like this sentimental thing of like, remember when I was a little kid and the Beatles were new, you know. And, you know, and then, I'm saying this when I'm six. [Laughter]. You know. But. And it just, it just felt right. And to age them, that just added to their characters. It just made their characters richer. And it made them just more real. The more. I just, the more I started to know these characters, the having a past and having a, you know, a present. And, and, and all that. It was just, it just, I just knew them more. And I just made, hopefully made the reader know them more. Like, these aren't just lines on paper. You know, that the, there's something beyond that. And, of course, it's just lines on paper. But I want. My main goal after a while was to make you believe that these aren't just lines on the paper. >> Gary Groth: Right, right. >> Jaime Hernandez: You know, so. >> Gary Groth: Well, speaking of just lines on paper. When you. I think, in the current, the current book, Maggie and Hopey are about 50, late 40's, 50. >> Jaime Hernandez: Early 50's. >> Gary Groth: So, what would that be? Early 50's. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. >> Gary Groth: Is there. Do you feel anything emotionally when you draw like a Maggie and a Hopey at the age of 52? When you had previously drawn them at, I don't know, how old? You know, 19 or. >> Jaime Hernandez: Right, right. >> Gary Groth: Twenty. And you're making them older. And you're, you know, had this substructure. But you have to, to age them. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. I really like it because. It's cornball again [inaudible]. >> Gary Groth: You're smiling. You're smiling. >> Jaime Hernandez: I get to go back to the very first issue and go, oh, my god, we were babies. You know, we were all so young. And so alive. [Laughter]. You know. >> Gary Groth: I think about that every time I read a current Love and Rockets. >> Jaime Hernandez: And it's just a. I guess it's just a thing I have, as the past and the present, even the future has this just rich, richness. And it just makes my characters more human. And more loveable to me. You know, Maggie and Hopey are arguing for the thousandth time. And like, oh, yeah, they used to do this when they were 17 too. [Laughter]. You know. >> Gary Groth: Yeah. >> Jaime Hernandez: And it's just. And then, it takes me back to my youth and all that. And I know that, I know there are a lot of people that prefer not to look back, you know. But I can't help it. [Laughter]. You know. >> Gary Groth: Right, right. Do you look in the, do you look to the future? Can you see Maggie and Hopey at 65? >> Jaime Hernandez: Sure. Or one of them at least, you know. >> Gary Groth: Yeah. >> Jaime Hernandez: I don't have definite. [Laughter]. I don't have definite plans. But. >> Gary Groth: What are you, what are you telling us? [Laughter]. >> Jaime Hernandez: But. But one of these characters in my whole thing will be very old. I don't know which one. >> Gary Groth: Okay. >> Jaime Hernandez: It's going to be [inaudible]. That's all I can tell you. >> Gary Groth: Yeah, yeah. [Laughter]. We'd like to take some questions. Go [inaudible], Frank. ^M00:47:17 [ Inaudible question ] ^M00:48:02 >> Jaime Hernandez: Oh, I gave up a long time ago trying to figure that out. I just hope that anyone you open, it'll keep you there. And maybe you'll want to go back and see early stuff. I don't know. I just hope that you'll stick around. [Laughter]. You know. You know. >> Gary Groth: By default, when people ask me that and they ask me that at conventions all the time, is just start at the beginning. Like, and read them in chronological order. And, you know, we have books by, by, [inaudible] Gilbert. Those, those big complete Love and Rockets that start from the beginning. And then, just go right up. Since that's the way I read them. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. And I just have to cringe a little because someone will say, I'm just starting. And they'll bring stuff that's almost 40 years old. And I'll go [breathing], okay. Just, just bear with it. Okay. It gets better. ^M00:49:03 [ Laughter ] ^M00:49:08 >> Gary Groth: Right there. >> So, I read in an interview a long time ago and you said something like, after you finish a story, your kind of like just not able to do anything for a few days. And that your wife thinks you're kind of like useless for a while. And I think about this all the time. I'm in one of these right now. Do you have any advise for, do you power through this? Do you just kind of after you're done, do you sit around and wait to feel creative again? I mean, how do you, I don't know, live an artist life? >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. I just know it'll come back because I've been doing it so long, you know. I burn out because I put so much into what I'm working at the time. And, and after I'm done, I'm wasted because everything came out of me. It spilled into that, that one issue. And sometimes I've got something in the back of my head, like, you know, hey, now I want to work on this. But sometimes I just can't do it. I just. I'm just empty. And I have to look out the window, you know. And, and then, take out the trash or something, you know. ^M00:50:25 But, but, you know, by now, I know it will come, it will come. I hate to say it, but the older I get, the harder it is to come. But. I don't know. Just, just, roll with it. Just let it, let it happen. You know, that's the way I do it. I just let it happen. I can't force myself to do something if I'm not ready. And sometimes it takes longer than others. But, you know. >> Gary Groth: Do you still feel as creatively vital and relevant today, as you did 10 or 20 or? >> Jaime Hernandez: Sure. >> Gary Groth: Thirty years ago. >> Jaime Hernandez: I do. I just get more tired. [Laughter]. >> Gary Groth: Tired faster. >> Jaime Hernandez: You know, you know, as sometimes I wake up and I go, I don't have anything. I'm done. I'm through. Okay, it's over. And then, I'll be walking, I'll be driving to the store or something. And I'll go, oh yeah, I got this other character. And I haven't done this one story about them yet, you know. And it'll just, just pop in my head. You know, wake up in the morning and go, I've got a whole thing here. You know, when just the night before I was just like, it's over. I'm done. [Laughter]. I'm done. I got nothing left to say, you know. So, I've learned to trust that, you know. >> Gary Groth: Right. >> Jaime Hernandez: Because if I, if I don't trust it, I'll never do it. [Laughter]. You know, I'll never get back to it. >> Gary Groth: Alright. I'm sorry? >> Yeah, my 16-year-old kid is getting really into your comic right now. He's going crazy over it. And he has a question for you. He can't be here. He's at school. Where did the name come from? Where did you get Love and Rockets? He thinks it's the most, the best name for a comic he's ever heard in his life. He wants to know why. Where did it come from? >> Jaime Hernandez: I'm sorry. I can barely. >> Love and Rockets. Where did the name come from? >> Jaime Hernandez: Oh, the title? Oh, Maggie. Oh, the name. >> Jaime Hernandez: I'm sorry. >> Gary Groth: Love and Rockets. >> Jaime Hernandez: Love and Rockets, Gilbert. [Laughter]. He just, we were doing. We were putting the comic together. And he made mockup, mock covers with different titles. And he just put them out. And he just goes, which one do you like best, what do you guys like best? And we pointed directly to Love and Rockets. We go, we like Love and Rockets. >> Gary Groth: What were the alternate titles? >> Jaime Hernandez: I remember one was Blue Food. >> Gary Groth: Blue Food. [Laughter]. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. [Laughter]. >> Gary Groth: It's good that you picked. [Laughter]. Yeah. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah, I can't remember the other titles. But I just remember. >> Gary Groth: Blue Foods, it's such a Gilbert title. >> Jaime Hernandez: When he put. I think it was a George Carlin joke. >> Gary Groth: Yes, it was, right. >> Jaime Hernandez: Blue Food. Yeah. >> Gary Groth: That's right, it was. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. And. Yeah. >> Gary Groth: But back then, you have to remember the book was full of love and rockets. Now, it's just full of love. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. Oh, yeah, I don't know how many years I heard people going, so, where's the rockets? ^M00:53:38 [ Laughter ] ^M00:53:43 >> So, after almost 40 years, have there been times when you've been tempted to just walk away from them and start new characters, a new series, something different? >> Jaime Hernandez: I'm sorry, my old ears are. >> Gary Groth: Was there ever a time when throughout over the last 40 years when you wanted, when you felt like walking away from Love and Rockets and starting entirely new characters? New. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. But every time I wanted to do that, I had a character in Love and Rockets that fit. They just filled, filled it in. And so, it's hard to leave my cast of characters, you know. Every time I do create new characters, somehow they end up related somehow. I can't, I can't. It's hard to separate this stuff for me. So, I mean, new character. Oh, I can go in Love and Rockets. [Laughter]. You know. >> Gary Groth: Yeah. I mean it's such a rich tapestry. Over here. ^M00:54:48 ^M00:54:52 >> Jaime Hernandez: I'm sorry guys that I can't hear. >> I'll try to be loud. Fantastic things happen in your stories. But I wondered if you could speak about when those are happening if you have an internal logic where you're like, no, that's too ridiculous? Or if there is like rules you follow about. >> Gary Groth: Can you cite one of the fantastic things you're referring to? >> I mean, people fly. >> Gary Groth: Oh, the superheroes. >> I mean, there's realism and then. >> Gary Groth: We didn't talk about your superheroes. >> Yeah. >> Jaime Hernandez: Oh yeah. >> So, different characters seem to have different constraints put upon them sometimes. >> Jaime Hernandez: Whatever I think is too dorky [laughter], you know, I won't do. You know, or, or. >> Gary Groth: That's the criteria. >> Jaime Hernandez: Or sometimes, it's just like, okay, I don't feel like making sense today. You know, and I, and I'll just try to throw something out and hope it hasn't happened in a TV show or something. I don't know. It's just, it's anything goes, you know. The only thing that stops me is me actually putting it on paper, you know. Yeah, the superhero stuff. Like the God in Science. I grew up on superheroes. So, I love the whole thing. You know, I just don't like how it ended up, I mean, for me, you know. So, when I did the Ti-Girls story, I rewrote superhero history. I go, well, I'm going to make up my own. You know, they made up their own in 1938, you know. So, I'm going to make up mine in. I'm going to change the rules. Okay. Let's see, women always had, every single woman born has superpowers. Just some of them take, some of them kept with it, or kept, ended up with it, you know. Well, that's now how superheroes work. Yeah, sure it is, you know. And, and so, and it was like, well, what about the men superheroes? Oh, they have to have accidents, like in a lab or something, like something explodes and [laughter], and they get the, and they get [inaudible]. And so, I have the, the, the young woman's super heroin's mom just going, going, yeah, but we women, we got it in us, man. You know, we, we all got it in us. And I thought, yeah, that's cool. Throw that in the boys club, you know, at boys club of superhero stuff. Yeah. >> Gary Groth: And your superhero story, which is like 150, I mean it was a substantial book. I mean, you used a lot of the characters from Hoppers. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah, yeah. >> Gary Groth: And it somehow fit seamlessly. I mean, somehow you just, you just converted them into superheroes. And it worked perfectly. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. I took, I took all the hints that were in the back of Love and Rockets going on like ever since the first issue, Penny Century goes, I want to be a superhero. And I go, well, this is the story where she gets to be a superhero finally. Maggie had that tenant in her apartment complex who she, Maggie had a suspicion that this, that she was a superhero when in hiding, you know, living in her apartments and stuff. And I go, well, I do that. And I just threw everything from the past of Love and Rockets of hints of superheroes going on in the background. And just made it all this one story. >> Gary Groth: Yeah, yeah. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. >> Gary Groth: Yeah. And it's. And, you know, I can't read superheroes anymore. I mean I used to read superheroes, you know, when I was younger. But I can't read them anymore. But this was so funny and so exhilarating and so absurd. And yet, you know, it had this kind of patina of, of realism. You know, I mean there was something at stake. There was also just so, you know, so wildly funny that it worked. >> Jaime Hernandez: It was just fun as hell. >> Gary Groth: Yeah, yeah. >> Jaime Hernandez: Because I just took my. >> Gary Groth: And visually you could really let loose in a way you could have not in your. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. >> Gary Groth: More realistic story. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. And it kind of wrote itself, you know, because. >> Gary Groth: Was that liberating? The visually being able to [inaudible]. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah, yeah, I love to do stuff like that every once in a while, because the Maggie, Hopey world is so tight with continuity and the real world. >> Gary Groth: And you have to be very disciplined. >> Jaime Hernandez: And I have to be very disciplined. And I have to work within the confines of real, reality. In the superhero one, it's like [mouth sound], okay, so, they knocked down this building. Who cares who died in it? [Laughter]. You know. >> Gary Groth: Right. Right. >> Jaime Hernandez: I mean, when you think of it, the thing, the thing since in the early Jack Kirby, he was constantly knocking down a building. >> Gary Groth: Oh, yeah. >> Jaime Hernandez: And nobody. >> Gary Groth: No, no one noticed. ^M01:00:07 >> Jaime Hernandez: Nobody. [Laughter]. >> Gary Groth: They moved on. [Laughter]. But speaking of which, one of my favorite stories of yours is Easter Egg, which was just, every panel is crazily absurd. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. Well, that was, that was. >> Gary Groth: It was just, visually it was so brilliant. >> Jaime Hernandez: Because I stole that from a Gilbert comic when he was. >> Gary Groth: Oh, he wrote it. >> Jaime Hernandez: When he was seven. >> Gary Groth: Yeah. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. And I took it panel by panel. And. >> Gary Groth: Presumably enhanced it a little bit. >> Jaime Hernandez: Well then, that was the thing because I was just amazed that Gilbert was a seven-year-old. He wrote this cohesive moving story, no matter how whacky it was. >> Gary Groth: Was it literally what he wrote? Or did he draw [inaudible]. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah, every panel was, was what he wrote. And I just. I was just in love with that story since I was a kid. So, I kept, I kept redrawing it. When I was a kid, I would redraw that story. And then, I would redraw it five years later. And then, one day I just needed an idea for Love and Rockets. And I just [multiple speakers]. >> Gary Groth: When, when, that was like late 80's? When was that? >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. >> Gary Groth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anybody. Do we have any? [Inaudible]. One more, one more question. Does anyone? I mean the pressure is on because it's got to be really great, of course. >> Thank you very much. Really great work. It's enlightened my life over and over again. If someone wanted to read more or see more about that history, that community, who would you recommend? I mean, I've read all your stuff. Who would be somebody else that might be worth reading? Or movie or whatever. >> Gary Groth: Somebody else, some other. >> Jaime Hernandez: Some other. >> Gary Groth: [Inaudible] or writer. >> Jaime Hernandez: Artist. The, the. >> Gary Groth: Good heavens. >> Jaime Hernandez: Well, a lot of them are going to be at the SPX show. [Laughter]. Because there's a, because this is. This is a perfect last question because then I get to open it up to, to right now in the history of comics, there are so many voices and so many creators. I would say there's just thousands and thousands of more comics than there were 1982, you know. >> Gary Groth: Yeah, yeah. [inaudible]. >> Jaime Hernandez: And all the. And there's so many artists that are just telling their own story, which we did. They're telling their own story. But on their own terms, which is the best part. They're, they're going, I don't care if you say I can't do this. I'm going to do this. And that's how we basically started. And they're doing it cheaply. Going to Kinko's. Cutting it up. Stapling it. They're going. They're doing it online. They're doing it, you know. They're just so, this, this is the era of where comics has just never been bigger. And never been wider and broader a subject matter. And. >> Gary Groth: The exact opposite of when you started. >> Jaime Hernandez: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm just happy that we were, we helped kind of push it out there, you know. Because it's amazing. I'm sorry, I can't think of any people, any names right now. But, but go to the SPX show and they're there. I mean, you just. And they all got their own story to tell. And it's the best thing you can do. Yeah. >> Gary Groth: Alright. Well, thanks for telling yours. ^M01:03:41 [ Applause ]