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>> Steve Winick: Welcome.  My name is Stephen Winick.  And I work at the American Folklife Center at the Library of Congress.  This is our second season of presenting Homegrown at Home Concerts.  That is, concerts recorded by artists in or near their homes, and then sent to us on video.  This was originally a measure we took to keep everyone safe during the COVID-19 pandemic.  But we still continue the tradition of our Homegrown Concert Series.  There are many years of Homegrown Concert videos, both live at the Library and recorded at home, which you can find on loc.gov, or at the Library of Congress YouTube channel.  As part of this series, we also try to conduct an interview with the performers to get their perspective on their own musical traditions.  I'm very happy to be here today with Patrick Rimes, Aneirin Jones and Jordan Price Williams, the members of the Welsh trio VRi.  Welcome.  And I will apologize in advance if I mispronounce any Welsh words in the course of the interview.  I know you must deal with that all the time with English and American interviewers.  
>> Patrick Rimes: It's going well so far though.  
>> Steve Winick: So welcome members of VRi.  Any one of you who would like to can field this question.  Would you just care to introduce us to a little bit to Wales?  Just let us know the essentials that Americans would want to know about your country.  
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>> Jordan Price Williams: Patrick, do you want to go?  
>> Patrick Rimes: Okay.  Well, if you're -- if you've -- you've probably heard -- if you're not aware of Wales per se, you've probably heard one of our famous singers.  We are known the world over as the Land of Song.  And you might have heard of Mr. Tom Jones or Mr. Bryn Terfel in your famous Metropolitan Opera, all kinds of other famous singers.  But we are a very small, but very beautiful country that's kind of nestling next to England in the British Isles.  And we're a country of lots of mountains and lots of sheep.  
>> Steve Winick: All right.  And lots of songs, as you said.  So let's begin talking about the musical traditions of Wales.  And I know one prominent one, which you mentioned several times in your video, is the tradition of hymn singing.  
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>> Jordan Price Williams: Yeah, that's -- that is a tradition that still has that, even though I think Wales as a nation has become more secular and not so -- religion isn't so built into, you know, our society like it is across the world now I suppose.  And hymn tradition -- the hymn -- the tradition of hymn singing still seems to be quite embedded.  And it's to do with the Methodist -- the Methodist Movement sort of at its height in the 19th century into the 20th century.  And I think the importance of it was this communal aspect to worship, and to community, and to the Welsh language.  And that's what, yeah, really made it so important.  And I think that's what kind of keeps it going today, the community and the Welsh language.  
>> Steve Winick: I was very interested, when watching your video, to find that "Crug y Bar," one of the hymns that you played, we have a recording of it from Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania here at the Library of Congress back in the 1920s.  So it's been around --
>> Jordan Price Williams: Oh, wow.
>> Steve Winick: The world.  And is just a feature of Welsh-American culture, as well as the culture in Wales.  
>> Jordan Price Williams: One of our most famous, most popular sort of hymn traditional tunes I think actually originally is an American hymn tune that we've sort of sucked over here.
>> Steve Winick: Added some Welsh words to it.
>> Jordan Price Williams: Yeah, of course.  
>> Steve Winick: Sounds very good.  So alongside of this hymn singing tradition has always also been a tradition of folk song -- of traditional folk song.  So what can you tell us about the Welsh folk song tradition?  
>> Patrick Rimes: Well, it was sort of -- at one point, would have been as strong as it is nowadays, say, in Scotland or Ireland.  Obviously, Ireland in particular has done a great job of exporting its folk music and folk music traditions all across the world.  It was during the time of the Methodist reformation that it was very much tied up with ideas of sin, and anything that involved lots of dancing, and maybe it revolved around pubs, was considered to be not the thing.  And so it was -- apart from the sort of small selection of tunes that were kind of appropriated and repurposed as hymns, a lot of that tradition was kind of cast aside.  And there was an awful lot of pressure on people to be seen to be not participating in that tradition.  People were kind of burying their harps under floorboards.  And we still have quite a popular expression in Welsh, which is "rhoi'r ffidil yn y to."  Which is when you -- you know, when you give up on something, literally you put the fiddle in the roof.  Which would have been, you know, to make sure that it wasn't burned in the sort of -- yeah, in the Methodist purge.  
>> Steve Winick: Right.  Well, so you've mentioned in that little explanation two different instruments that I suppose are very important in Welsh folk music.  And I know, of course, in your band, the fiddle is sort of central.  So talk a little bit about Welsh fiddle music.  Maybe how it grows out of or compares with the sort of general British and Celtic fiddle tradition, but might differ in certain ways.  
>> Jordan Price Williams: Do you mind if I take this one just quickly?  Just to say that actually I think Welsh folk -- Welsh dance music fundamentally is harp music.  Our fiddle tradition is a broken tradition, unlike the harp tradition.  And when you look at the great collections of earlier Welsh dance music in the 18th and 19th centuries, it's harp music.  So it's actually -- a lot of it is really uncomfortable to play on the fiddle.  And so we don't have -- I suppose modern Welsh fiddle players have to have a bit of creative license with how they play some tunes to make them fit on a fiddle.  Yeah.  But I'm sure Patrick could tell you more about Welsh fiddle playing.  
>> Patrick Rimes: Just to pick up as a part of the story that I kind of omitted earlier.  While this, you know, Methodism was taking quite a hard line on sort of traditional music and traditional dance, the one sort of sector of the Welsh population which wasn't really taking much notice was the Romani Gypsy population who just, you know, did what they wanted, and didn't really care what other people thought of them.  Which is quite lucky for us, because they were the one sort of strand of tradition bearers, and the reason why we still -- why quite a lot of our traditional music survives.  And their instrument of choice -- I mean, some of them played the fiddles.  But the majority were sort of -- were harpers, and were kind of -- were traveling harpists.  And they would sort of walk the length of Wales with a harp strapped on their back to go and -- to go and sort of, you know, play for money somewhere.  But, yeah, as Jordan said, we're in a position, certainly since -- I think since the mid-90s, when people have been taking an interest in traditional Welsh music, you know, more so than they were.  There's been a big revival movement on.  And it's quite nice in a way to not have the pressure of a really strong tradition that's been handed down, you know, somewhere like, you know, in Scotland or in Ireland or in Scandinavia, where you've got, you know, generation on generation of fiddle players who have -- you know, playing in this really, you know, sort of strict, authentic way. And we don't have any of that.  So we've had to go and make it up for ourselves.  And it's quite nice, really.  You take a bit of here, and a bit of there.  And, you know, play what you like, and discard what you don't.  
>> Jordan Price Williams: There's a -- I think each Welsh fiddle player has kind of their sound.  And that's -- it's just great to hear.  Especially when you hear people playing together.  Everybody sounds -- because I suppose we take -- we beg, borrow and steal from whichever tradition that we've listened most to of a CD recently or something.  You know, there are some fiddle players I think maybe sound a little bit more akin to a Breton kind of sound world.  And some take more from the Gaelic -- the Gaelic traditions.  It's quite an interesting sort of collection.  
>> Patrick Rimes: And we shouldn't forget the influence that England has on us as well.  I mean -- 
>> Jordan Price Williams: Oh, of course, yeah, [inaudible] --
>> Patrick Rimes: I know it's quite -- it's quite sort of trendy to try and deny that the English has any sort of cultural influence on us at all, and that we are all, you know, Celtic together. 
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But, actually, you know, they are a big and quite culturally significant country right next door to us.  And, you know, Welsh music and English music does have quite a lot in common.  
>> Steve Winick: Yeah.  Yeah, now, you've mentioned the harp, you know, as a very significant instrument in Welsh traditional music.  And that that was surprisingly, I think to people who don't know the tradition, the instrument of choice for Romani people in Wales, as well as sort of you go back to the old Celtic aristocracy, and their harpers would be playing harps for them as well.  So to what extent, you know, is the traditional music of Wales today still based on that older harp strand of music?
>> Jordan Price Williams: I think if -- I suppose it's becoming -- you could argue that it's sort of becoming less so, because there are more people engaging with the tradition who aren't harpers.  And so are bringing -- or bringing to it something that is not heart based, or, like ourselves, trying to find strands within the music that are appropriate for what we do.  So I think it's maybe a little bit more even now.  However, the tradition of the triple harp is still very strong, and has some real tradition bearers.  And I think, unfortunately, or fortunately, whichever way you look at it, there's a trend these days towards the kind of high energy music.  And maybe I think sometimes I'm sure many a harper would lament the fact that it's harder to perhaps deliver that kind of aesthetic on a triple harp.  So it stands in its own tradition I think.  That is, I think a lot of the triple harpers aren't being affected so much by what other people are doing.  
>> Steve Winick: Yeah, if you could just for our listeners who wouldn't be familiar with it, explain the strange mechanics of the triple harp that you're talking about.
>> Jordan Price Williams: Well, the triple harp is not unique to Wales.  It just, in a folk tradition, has lingered here longer than anywhere else.  It is the Baroque harp.  It is the Italian, cutting-edge instrument after the Gothic harp, and into the Baroque period.  It was the instrument of all concert harpists.  And it was brought to Wales then.  And then through the Roma community has been preserved, as much as a traditional instrument.  But when you look a bit further back in its history, I'm really not a harp expert, but you can see that some of the collections of harp music were -- it was almost art music in the way that western classical music is today, rather than a strict, traditional tradition I suppose.  People were collecting it, and taking these collections to London.  And when you look at the arrangements, they're actually very complex.  And the triple harp can obviously do all these things.  I don't know how many of these more extended -- sort of this extended -- the requirement of a greater technique was part of the Roma community or not.  You should speak to Robin Huw Bowen, who would --
>> Steve Winick: Sure.
>> Jordan Price Williams: Thoroughly enlighten you.  
>> Steve Winick: Absolutely.
>> Patrick Rimes: But on a regular harp that you'd expect to see, you know, in a concert hall today, it would probably have one row of strings.  And then you would -- so it would be tuned to like a diatonic scale.  And you'd expect to -- if you needed to change notes, sort of sharpen them or flatten them, you'd expect to see either some pedals to be played with the feet, or levers that you'd move with your hands.  But the triple harp kind of does away with that idea.  There's no levers.  All the strings stay tuned to one pitch.  But you have three rows.  So your diatonic scale in unison is on the outside.  And then the inside rows are kind of your black notes on the piano.  So, in theory, you can play in whatever key.  And you can play chromatically.  Obviously, in practice, nobody has enough joints in their fingers to be able to do that.  So you're still limited to certain keys.  But what it does give you is this quite amazing sympathetic string quality.  So, you know, with the two strings tuned in unison, they're obviously, you know, sort of vibrating each other's air.  And they're creating all of this -- sort of these overtones.  And it's quite a unique sound.  
>> Jordan Price Williams: And there is a --
>> Steve Winick: Right.
>> Jordan Price Williams: Technique where you double the melody [inaudible] "dah dah dah dah dah dah dah dah dah" like this.  Which you can do on a triple harp that you can't do on a lever harper, Celtic harp or on a concert harp with such great effect.  
>> Steve Winick: That makes sense, yeah.  Because those strings still have to vibrate.  You can't pluck them again.  But if you've got --
>> Patrick Rimes: Yeah.
>> Steve Winick: Two of the same string, right --
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Well, I know that we've gone outside of the realm of the music that VRi actually plays by talking about the harp.  But there's -- but, I mean, one of the things that we've been skirting around, and we haven't really spoken about directly, is the fact that Wales is what we would call a Celtic country.  And you talked about the Welsh language.  And, of course, Welsh is a Celtic language as well.  So let's talk a little bit, before we go further, about the connection of Wales to the other Celtic-speaking countries.  And how that might have influenced the music tradition as well.  
>> Patrick Rimes: Aneirin, do you want to say this one?
>> Aneirin Jones: Yeah.  So, yeah, Wales and it's connections.  I guess with other Celtic nations, we've been really fortunate that our Welsh language has really kind of survived quite strongly in comparison.  And we have about 19 percent that speak the lost language where in -- well, I think in Scots Gaelic and in Irish Gaelic, the numbers can be quite a lot smaller.  And I feel that -- wow, I'm just kind of losing my train of thought here.  
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>> Jordan Price Williams: I think with what -- 
>> Aneirin Jones: I can't --
>> Jordan Price Williams: Well, I think I'm sort of following what your train of thought there is.  That with our -- I think what we have with our language is perhaps what we have lost with our traditional music in comparison to Scotland and Ireland, who perhaps maybe their numbers, their native speak -- the numbers of their native language are not -- the percentages aren't quite high.  But the strength of their tradition is much greater of their traditional music.  So our language is of the same branch as Cornish and Breton.  And Cornish, unfortunately, became extinct.  And there is now a revival.  Cornish is phenomenal, because when you hear a Cornish speaker, it sounds like -- it just sounds like a dialect of Welsh.  Because, essentially, that's what they kind of are.  And what we share I suppose with our linguistic -- our Brythonic cousins, what we might share sort of linguistically, but not culturally, the Gaelic countries, Scotland, the Isle of Man and Ireland, they share both linguistically and in terms of their traditional culture as well.  
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>> Steve Winick: Great.  Well, so there is an instrument that is in your group that we haven't spoken of yet.  And that is not that common in much European folk music.  But it's becoming more common, both in American and European folk music.  And we're talking about the cello.  So, Jordan, tell us a bit about your instrument, and how that came to be part of VRi.  
>> Jordan Price Williams: Yeah, the cello is a real imposter in this tradition.  And probably partly because they were more expensive to be made.  And I think these days as well the cello is quite unforgiving when it's maybe not quite as accessible as a fiddle.  But when you -- you can essentially use it like a fiddle.  And it's much better at accompaniment I think than tune play.  And although there will be so many [inaudible] out there shouting at their screens and correcting me, at least maybe let's say I find it easier to be an accompanist than a tune player on the cello.  I think it lends itself really beautifully to Welsh music.  
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And, of course, it lends itself to Scottish language music for its rhythmic capabilities.  But in Welsh music, I think we have this -- from the hymn singing tradition, we have this deep love of harmony.  And it's not -- it's you -- you know, fiddler players in the session, it won't take them more than once around a tune before people are starting to improvise harmonies.  And that is where the cello in this setting with VRi really comes into its own, because it's fundament.  And I honestly can have the most pleasure out of just playing one long, low note.  And while the fiddles do their thing above.  And that's -- it's this great fundament.  And Welsh music, especially with the slow airs and the song tunes, where the cello doesn't have to fly around, it really -- it's a sound that, yeah, is rare to hear.  
>> Steve Winick: Well, I mean, it's interesting that so many of the song traditions in the Celtic countries, and also in England, you know, in Britain generally, are more or less monophonic.  But Wales has got that fantastic hymn singing tradition that was polyphonic, of course, and is polyphonic.  And that the cello is sort of doing to the dance music, or the instrumental music, what has been done to the song music through that tradition.  Is that sort of how you see it or?  
>> Jordan Price Williams: Oh, yeah, definitely, yeah.  And I mean -- and then on the other side, of course, I'm incredibly inspired by cellists like Natalie Haas and Eric Wright, who are American cellists who are pushing the bound -- what the cello can do, and how it can fit into sort of music from Britain or Ireland.  And, obviously, I bring that in as well.  So I suppose, yeah, these two kind of -- these two kind of roles.  
>> Steve Winick: So Patrick comments in the video, and you've all alluded here, that Welsh folk music kind of went through, you know, a period in the 20th century when it was more or less ignored or neglected.  Would anyone care to expand on that, either in terms of why that might be, or -- well, you already talked about what its effects were.  That is to say, you know, you have a certain freedom not to follow this unbroken tradition.  But why do you think it was neglected in this way?
>> Patrick Rimes: I think it was because of what, you know, Jordan said earlier that the chapel culture, it became so much more than religion.  It was -- you know, it's an absolute mainstay in communities.  You know, there are lots of very sort of working class, work-based communities up and down Wales.  And I grew up in a slate village.  And, you know, Jordan, you're in the Avon Valley.  So that's, what, steel and --
>> Jordan Price Williams: Coal.
>> Patrick Rimes: Coal and steel.  You know, it's been, you know, a really a sort of a cradle of industry for a long time.  And in those kind of communities, you know, the chapel, it was more than just worship.  It was -- my whole life revolved around it.  And I think that probably made it very difficult for people to kind of deviate from what was sort of considered good and right.  And even though, as we've said, you know, that it's becoming a much more secular society now, like chapel culture and, you know, and going on a Sunday as a sort of a hang, rather than a -- rather than to worship, is still very much a thing.  And I think there's been a huge hangover from that, which has had that effect on traditional music.  And as we've also said, it's had a hugely beneficial effect on other kinds of musical activity.  You know, the Eisteddfod is originally based around religious singing.  You know?  And that still is a massive driver for all kinds of music in Wales now.  You've alluded to that kind of -- that inherent need to harmonize, which is absolutely a thing.  And, you know, you never -- you hear a rendition of "Happy Birthday" in Wales without, you know, everybody immediately trying to jump on the juiciest harmony they can.  So, I mean, there's definitely been some benefits out of it.  But I think even -- yeah, even though, clearly, there aren't many, you know, sort of fundamentalist Methodists around these days, that there has been a bit of a hangover from that culture.  
>> Jordan Price Williams: Yeah.  I'd imagine as well, much like other traditional musics around the world, that the sort of -- the slow march of globalization from the beginning of the 20th century from the 19th century, and the way that has changed the music that the majority of people listen to anyway, I think, as probably always, you know, it's had the effect on Welsh music that it's had on any other traditional music as well.  So I think that's been happening in the background.  You know, I don't think there's a huge amount of people who would sit down, and listen to an album of Welsh traditional music, as there are people who would sit down and listen to Adele, or somebody like that.  Yeah.  Much is the pity. 
>> Steve Winick: That makes sense, yeah.  Certainly.  So one thing that Patrick just mentioned in his answer was the Eisteddfod tradition.  Explain that a little bit, too.  I mean, I think that's, as you say, been hugely influential in forwarding Welsh music.
>> Jordan Price Williams: Yeah.  Aneirin, you were a participant of the Eisteddfod.  I think you need to unmute yourself.
>> Aneirin Jones: Unmute, yeah.  So the [inaudible] Eisteddfod tradition, it's something kind of we've all grown up to to an extent.  Kind of Eisteddfod comes from the kind of [inaudible] tradition of kind of awarding the poet with the eistedd with the [inaudible] with the chair.  But, obviously, now it's become something that, you know, involves art, drama, loads of different things.  So we had -- you have the Eisteddfod yr Urdd, which is our youth Eisteddfod, which has lots of sort of school competitions to singing in choirs to playing in string quartets to orchestras and everything.  So, for me, and, well, I think for all of us, we can really say that it was a massive part of our musical upbringing.  And we were really, really very grateful for it.  And, of course, we have [inaudible] a national Eisteddfod, the Eisteddfod Genedlaethol, which has really been incredibly supportive of folk music recently as put with our [inaudible] and for putting on amazing concerts.  But, also, just -- yeah, there's been a great kind of thing with the Eisteddfod.  Is there more?
>> Jordan Price Williams: Yeah, I think in the west language, community has -- it's -- again, I suppose it's a bit like the chapel traditions were.  It is an incredibly communal event.  It is a real celebration of Welsh language and Welsh culture.  
>> Patrick Rimes: Until 2005, it was -- having had its Methodist roots, it was a completely teetotal event.  And in 2005, the Eisteddfod in Newport was the first time when they had a bar.  They had the National Eisteddfod.  And it was absolutely -- it was very controversial.  It raised eyebrows left, right and center.  But, I mean, these days, it's a week-long piss-up in the sun, isn't it, with, you know, the occasional -- with the occasional choir competition.  
>> Steve Winick: So just to sort of characterize what it is at base, it's essentially a celebration of and competition within the various musical and linguistic traditions of Wales.  Is that right?  
>> Jordan Price Williams: Its fundamental point is a competition, and a meeting of bards, where at the main ceremony, new bards are invited into the Gorsedd, which is the community of bards, and prizes are given out.  That is the thing that is I think about from the very first Eisteddfod, you know, over 1,000 years ago, that was the point of it then.  And at its core, that is the point of it today as well. 
>> Steve Winick: And would you say that the Welsh language movement, that is the movement to ensure that the Welsh language survives, and is spoken by as many Welsh people as possible, has been very influential on culture and music generally as well?  
>> Patrick Rimes: Yeah, absolutely.  You know, the -- it's a -- you know, it's a constant battle, but it's a battle that we are winning at the moment.  
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Previous generations have been through -- actual through hell and high water to try and make sure that we have a national broadcaster on television, that we have a radio station which broadcasts 24 hours a day in the Welsh language.  And what that does is it provides people, like us, of our generation, with an outlet.  And it means that we can -- you know, we can thrive and we can, you know, reach audiences in a way that an equivalent act in an English-speaking country would have a much more difficult time doing.  Because, you know, there's a -- you know, the fact is it is a small pool and it's a small pond.  And, you know, it means that we can really -- you know, we can thrive in there.  And, you know, for that, we are incredibly grateful to, you know, people who have been through, I mean, really, really, really hard times to try and ensure that that is something that we do have.  
>> Jordan Price Williams: I'm always amazed as well by the sheer amount of talent that is in the Welsh language community.  I don't -- I can't quite put any [inaudible] understand [inaudible] or understand why I put any reasons around it.  There does seem to be a higher concentration of people who are artistically talented in music or in poetry.  And maybe it's just because it's there from the moment that your mother first speaks to you.  
>> Patrick Rimes: I mean, we're obviously coming from a traditional music point of view.  But, I mean, that's not the extent of it at all.  You know, we've got a fantastic -- you know, we have a long tradition of really fantastic rock bands.  And, you know, we're producing really high-quality classical singers, you know, and classical musicians and fine artists.  You know, it really is something that is, for whatever reason, this needs to be valued here.  And, you know, we're really proud of it.  
>> Steve Winick: Wonderful.  So we have talked about the fact that there was kind of a break in the 20th century, when Welsh folk music was kind of ignored a little bit.  But there was a kind of earlier generation, if you will, of the folk revival.  When I first started listening to folk music, there was Ar Log.  And I became friendly with Siwsann George, the singer -- the late singer, when she came over to the U.S. for some festivals.  So is there any continuity between those folks who were primarily in the '80s, '90s and early 2000s, and what you folks are doing now?
>> Jordan Price Williams: Absolutely yes.  Essentially, they taught us.  Whether they taught us directly, or whether one of their albums was the first one we heard.  Siwsann George's album, the one that I've got a copy of, I go back to time and time and time again.  And is it a -- yeah, these things do have -- especially because there wasn't a huge amount of them doing it, like there aren't a huge amount of us doing it today.  That it's just -- it's -- I don't know, it's all just great stuff.  And Ar Log, I mean, yeah, every time I want to find a tune that I know is going to be very good and played well, and a lot of fun, I go to the Ar Log albums.  I wouldn't -- we don't play in the same way as them.  But they're -- what they -- what they're all about I think is they've really like, and still -- constantly still do inspire young musicians in Wales.  
>> Patrick Rimes: Yeah.  And you want to talk about continuity, I mean, like Ar Log, you know, Gwyndaf and Dafydd, the two harpists, students of Eldra Jarma, who was, you know, related to the Wood gypsy family.  You know, Robin Huw Bowen, who we've already mentioned, who learned with Eldra, and also with Nansi Richards, who -- you know.  So, I mean, that's literally direct access back into that sort of that heritage, you know, of the gypsy music.  And, you know, that's incredible.  
>> Jordan Price Williams: Yeah.  They really -- they've paved the way for us to be able to do what we do now.  Yeah.  
>> Steve Winick: And, certainly, though you've mentioned that you don't play the same way, one thing that you do notice, that is a certain continuity between that generation and yours, is I think a certain influence of classical or chamber music.  Would you agree with that?  Does that make sense to you?
>> Jordan Price Williams: Yeah.  I mean that absolutely applies for VRi, and what we are trying to achieve.  Yeah.  And I think there is something very, very -- which is sort of the absolute spirit of folk music in it, in that when you're not -- when you have your fiddle lesson, when you're a child, the person probably who's teaching you is probably your local music teacher, who is a classical violinist most likely.  It's not -- we don't have access to generations and generations of people of traditional fiddle players in your local pub.  And so, of course, yeah, that absolutely leaves an imprint on you throughout all the musical decisions you take on your journey.  That is still your foundation.  And I'm sure -- I mean, I might be wrong in saying, but I would imagine that for the guys of that generation, that was probably their first access to music.  
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>> Steve Winick: No, that makes a lot of sense as well.  Yeah.  So you mentioned, you know, your musical journeys.  And I guess one question that arises for a lot of people looking at it from the outside is, "How does a musical journey into Welsh traditional music for a player start?"  Like how do you realize that this is what you want to do?  And then how do you go about doing it on the Welsh scene as it exists now?  
>> Jordan Price Williams: You know, Aneirin has probably got the most -- your story is great, because you are probably the most modern of us in terms of your journey really.  So, yeah, what do you -- 
>> Aneirin Jones: So, for me, it was, like Jordan said, very much classical, formal lessons.  I had my first folk -- like folk fiddle lesson when I started up in university up in Glasgow.  But, yeah, our kind of -- my big musical journey was just having those local sessions.  It was about -- there was just one session in Swansea, which is just kind of down the road from me.  And it was just once a month.  And it was like discovering a new world of music, because I didn't have to -- I didn't have to follow the copy.  I didn't have to follow the manuscript.  I could stay up a bit late and, you know, play tunes in the pub.  Oh, it was brilliant when you're 12 years old.  And then, yes, it was really kind of really fortunate to do that.  And then kind of things kind of progressed on.  And then we -- well, I think what's really, really lucky is the amount of young people that have now come into the kind of mix of playing.  And in terms of the musical journey, that had a massive impact for me.  We have our folk course, our youth folk course called Gwerin Gwallgo, up in North Wales.  And that was a massive impact just for meeting and getting to know these other two older chaps.  And, also, yeah, just kind of sharing music with young people.  You know, what normally the kind of mates I play who are my age, we would always be playing classical music in the orchestra.  So it was a really big rarity for having that.  But, for me, I kind of -- my kind of musical upbringing later on kind of took a weird turn, because I ended up going to Glasgow to study, primarily, kind of Scottish and Irish music.  Which all, you know, had a very big influence on me.  And as we say with the kind of artistic liberties that fiddle players can take, then going on to study, you know, kind of another tradition in another city, without any kind of Welsh music around me at all, was really interesting to kind of immerse myself into another tradition, pick up those styles, and then bring them back, now we're finished, bring them back into my kind of Welsh playing.  Now I'm back to being based in Wales.  
>> Jordan Price Williams: I could be wrong, Aneirin, but I wonder whether you are the first Welsh musician to ever have a degree in traditional music.  
>> Aneirin Jones: Um, oh, there's also [inaudible] -- 
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>> Jordan Price Williams: Second place is a pretty good one.  But there's not many people, is there?  There's not many, yeah.  There's not many Welsh musicians who have a degree in traditional music.  It's quite a new thing across the board I suppose, isn't it?  
>> Steve Winick: Sure.  But that's an interesting question is, "Is there such a program in Wales?"  And if not, do you think one's in the vision stages anywhere?
>> Patrick Rimes: There is not currently such a degree in Wales.  I know that there are lots of conversations happening in the Royal Welsh Music -- Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama in Cardiff to try and instigate something.  No one's really sure what it should be.  And, you know, it would be a huge job.  You know, you would have to -- it would take probably many years to sit down and actually distill down what the curriculum should be.  But I know those conversations are happening.  
>> Jordan Price Williams: But there is some universities, as part of their music degrees, sort of deliver small modules, one-off modules perhaps sometimes, on some kind of traditional music.  I know Bangor University in the north, Steven Rees, who is a fiddle player with Ar Log, is a music lecturer at that university.  He has some -- he has an influence there, of course.  But there's nothing -- yeah, as Patrick said, nothing set up and already functioning in the way that there is in Scotland or Ireland, in fact.  
>> Steve Winick: So another question that pertains to us, here at the Library of Congress, is whether they're advanced archival resources for folk music in Wales, where you go if you want to hear archival recordings, or find archival manuscripts, that kind of thing.
>> Patrick Rimes: It depends what you mean by advanced.  There are extensive archival recordings, which we have had the pleasure to go and sort of sift through in Aberystwyth on the west coast.  It's where our Lylfrgell Genedlaethol is, our National Library.  And that includes collections curated by a number of people.  But I suppose the biggest one, in terms of volume, is J. Lloyd Williams, who was a sort of polymath, and I think a founder member of the Welsh Folk Song Society or the Royal Folk Dance Society, one of them.  A big collector of manuscripts.  So there are boxes upon boxes of just loose leaf, nothing digitized, nothing -- not -- you know, most of it not really catalogued.  I mean, they're working through it gradually.  And more and more of it is available online now.  Also, I mean, a smaller, in terms of volume, but equally significant, is [inaudible] collections.  And he's somebody who would be familiar to a lot of people over there.  I mean, he spent a lot of time in North America with Phyllis Kinney.  And the two of them have, you know, done a huge amount of work, and really detailed collections.  I mean, this where it differs to J. Lloyd Williams is that there's loads of reference cards where, you know, there'll be a card dedicated to a song.  And then on the back, there will be also "see this x, y and z songs" also on the same topic, or collected by the same person, or with a different tune.  And so, I mean, they're so meticulous and really, really invaluable when you go through.  And just to give you a little bit of a steer on, because it can be quite overwhelming to be sort of faced with these, you know, 50 boxes just as loose -- you know, loose manuscripts.  I mean, it's quite exciting.  And you never know what you're going to -- you know, what you're going to turn over on the next page. 
>> Jordan Price Williams: The --
>> Steve Winick: Right.  And -- sorry [inaudible].  
>> Jordan Price Williams: So the National Library is their collections are much more papers-based.  Whereas the Museum of Welsh Life down here near Cardiff, there is quite a large collection of sound recordings from sort of mid-20th century onwards.  And that is they are notoriously sometimes quite difficult to get in and see them.  They have digitized some of them.  And that work was mostly done by [inaudible], who has really made all that happen in St. Fagan in the museum there.  But, yeah, that -- there -- it's not -- I don't think the amount of material that is available is quite as big as maybe perhaps in some other nations.  
>> Patrick Rimes: The great thing about the sound archive is as well it's not just -- I mean, there are -- you know, you occasionally come across a new tune.  But you get a real insight into regional accents.  You know, and places -- you know, some -- you know, some spots down in Southeast Wales, where you're very close to the English border, where these days, you know, if there is a -- if there is any Welsh spoken, it's more of a kind of a generic South Wales -- with a Southeast Wales.  But, I mean, you had these pockets like in Gwent, where they spoke quite a sort of distinct dialect called Gwenhwyseg.  And you hear, you know, archive recordings of people talking like that.  It's so interesting, and really, really exciting to hear that.  
>> Jordan Price Williams: And they affect the modern English accents now.  So in Cardiff, Cardiff is a very distinct -- I suppose it would be Wales's answer to maybe to the Baltimore accent.  It's a very -- it's quite a broad and funny sort of sound.  But it's come directly from the dialect of Welsh that was spoken here, even though the majority of people kind of are not Welsh speakers.  And that these recordings, which are not only -- they're not just musical, but they record, you know, every aspect of Welsh life as -- yeah, preserves all these things.  I think the United Kingdom is -- all of Great Britain is sort of -- it's mad how the accents change.  You can go five or 10 miles, and there's a noticeable difference in the accent.  And it's the same thing in Wales.  But, also, within the Welsh language, within the English language, and with full of dialect words as well, that I remember the first time I met Patrick, I couldn't understand a word he was saying in Welsh, not a clue.  
>> Steve Winick: Yeah.  That's funny.  Yeah, because, you know, people don't necessarily know, looking from the outside, that those dialect differences are so extreme.  Yeah.  That's great to know.  And it's true as well, as you say, in Ireland and Scotland and other places, that the language that develops as the English dialect of people whose ancestors spoke Irish, is heavily influenced by Gaelic, even when they don't themselves speak Gaelic.  It's just their parents who first started speaking English that way had that connection.  So I'm sure it's the same in Cardiff and other places in Wales.  Very interesting.
>> Patrick Rimes: Absolutely.
>> Steve Winick: Yeah.  Yeah, well, to bring it back to VRi a little bit.  So we've been talking about the general culture a lot.  But how did you three come together into a group?
>> Patrick Rimes: Well, I suppose we should credit someone who's been mentioned once already this evening, which is Bryn Terfel.  The three of us were kind of involved in a backing band of his, when he was doing a -- he does an annual TV broadcast for [inaudible], which is our national broadcaster, around Christmas.  And, usually, you know, it's kind of a black-tie concert set up.  You know, and he'd be -- it's him in front of an orchestra doing all the hits.  And he decided he was going to, you know, put a slightly more folk music spin on it in I think 2016.  And so we were drafted in to, you know, come and go with him to St. Fagan in the Museum of Welsh Life.  Which, as well as having really great sound archives, it's also got sort of restored historical buildings.  So it's this great big park that's full of, you know, sort of various churches that have been, you know, salvaged and brought brick-by-brick.  And there are -- you know, that there's sort of a -- there's kind of like a cockfighting stadium.  And, you know, a row of houses from different periods.  And so, yeah.  And we all trooped up there for three days to go and record this material.  And as it usually goes with, you know, a filming, you know, sort of a day of filming, there is maybe 10 percent music and 90 percent hanging around.  So we found ourselves kind of a loose end and, you know, chilling out in this place.  And we kind of -- we quite liked it.  And so we decided we were going to hang out some more, and play some music together.  And I think we all -- as we've said already, you know, we had that background in, you know, that sort of classical grounding.  You know, we've all enjoyed playing a lot of traditional music.  But we've got that sort of that background in playing in classical music, and in playing, particularly, ensemble music.  And that's a kind of an itch that we wanted to scratch a little bit, and to try and apply some of the same drills to playing our traditional music.  
>> Jordan Price Williams: Somewhere on YouTube I think there is a video of us playing as a trio with Bryn Terfel.  But Patrick's playing the accordion, I'm playing the double bass, and Aneirin's on the fiddle, before we were to come anywhere near our current set up.  
>> Patrick Rimes: Yeah, we need to get in touch with Mark Zuckerberg to try and get him to make that disappear.  
>> Steve Winick: So, yeah, well, this sort of opens up this question is all of you played in -- have played in different bands.  And you've all played different kinds of music.  I mean, I know Patrick plays a -- I've seen Patrick play accordion and bagpipes, and all kinds of other things.  
^M00:50:06
So the question is, "How did you develop the concept for VRi, and then put together a repertoire for this group specifically?"  
>> Jordan Price Williams: I think I at first, just before we -- just when we did that gig, I had just graduated my master's degree.  Which was actually in classical double bass.  And I started to play the cello, because I was fed up of, firstly, carrying the double bass around.  And, secondly, how sort of limited the instrument can be.  And me and Patrick had lived quite close to each other.  And there was -- I think my very first initial thought was that I wanted to -- essentially, I wanted to be a fiddle player.  But I just haven't got the time to learn to play the fiddle.  So the cello was the next best thing.  And it seems to fit really nicely with two fiddles.  And this two fiddles in Wales is quite -- has been creeping in as more popular combination as well.  So it just seemed natural to kind of put the cello underneath, and then draw on what our sort of musical experiences have been altogether.  And it was an experiment in the beginning.  And we were lucky that we seemed to have struck on something that works for us.  
>> Patrick Rimes: Yeah.  I think around that time, I'd just experienced the Danish string quartet for the first time.  I'd been on a coaching weekend at Chetham's School in Manchester.  Which is sort of a music --specific music school.  And they came -- you know, it was a quartet coaching I think, yeah, like a three-day course.  And they'd come in to give a lunchtime concert.  And they played just the most knockout Shostakovich 2 that I'd ever heard.  And I really -- I loved that piece.  And I was just absolutely riveted.  And then they took their music stands away, and sat down and just played a Danish polska.  And I just thought, "This is -- like this is nuts.  This is amazing."  And then I'd been to Folk Alliance, and seen The Fretless, and brought that -- and brought that record back.  And then I think somewhere on that kind of continuum, because they're two -- I mean, even though the lineups are quite similar, and the sort of the level of musical excellence is, you know, on a par, but they are on a continuum.  They're two points that are really quite far apart.  And I remember thinking like somewhere in the middle of those two things, there's a sweet spot, that that's kind of where I want to be.  
>> Steve Winick: Great.  So before we conclude, I'd like to ask a couple of questions about specific repertoire items in the concert.  Aneirin mentioned that one of the tunes was almost the tune for the Welsh National Anthem.  but I'm not sure exactly what that means.  Could you expand on that story, how that might have been, but it did not become the National Anthem?  
>> Aneirin Jones: So, yeah, so the tune's called [foreign language], which just translates as good humored -- good humored and drunk.  And I don't -- I haven't got -- I don't know like the best details about it.  But I think it almost became in just the way that I think the words fit the melody.  But then, of course, we had instead of that -- instead of it not being [inaudible], not knowing we used the tune [foreign language] , Land of My Fathers, which we had -- 
>> Jordan Price Williams: I believe, actually -- I don't think I told you boys this.  But I believe that our National Anthem came from a competition.  And --
>> Patrick Rimes: Right.  
>> Jordan Price Williams: And I could be wrong, but I think it was, in fact, the Eisteddfod that put a call out for a Welsh national anthem.  And it was Evan James and James James who wrote [foreign language].  Who eventually won it.  But I think in the running for that was a set of words to the tune [foreign language].  
>> Patrick Rimes: There's quite a rich tradition.  And I presume this happens elsewhere as well.  But, you know, that hymns and hymn tunes are not necessarily connected.  You know, so the hymn is -- you know, it would largely -- it would broadly be thought to be the text.  And then, you know, so the tune for [foreign language], which is what we now recognize as our National Anthem, is I believe it's called -- the tune is called [foreign language].  
>> Jordan Price Williams: [foreign language], yeah.  
>> Patrick Rimes: And so -- and, you know, that -- so that you can mix and match your melodies.  And so, as Aneirin said, it would easily scan to go --
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[ Singing in Foreign Language ]
^M00:55:17
Et cetera.  
>> Steve Winick: Right.  Yeah, it's an interesting phenomenon.  In folk music, too, of course, it happens that the tunes get separated, and rejoined with other words.  So it's not -- it's not peculiar to hymns.  We encountered you through Folk Alliance.  And, Patrick, you mentioned that already.  So that's, of course, a big conference and trade show dedicated to folk music here in North America, Folk Alliance International.  And, typically, I've seen bands with you guys, the various members of VRi, in British showcases there.  Which have been quite strong for the last 10 years I would say.  And so the question is, "What kind of institutional supports are there that is allowing Welsh music to do things like come to the states at shows like Folk Alliance?"
>> Patrick Rimes: So the British Room is curated.  And it's sort of facilitated by a company called British Underground.  Which specializes in exporting all kinds of music from the UK and Ireland to showcase events over the world.  So as well as doing Folk Alliance, they will do things like, you know, they'll take a delegation to South by Southwest.  You know, they'll go to [foreign language] in Germany.  And they go to, you know, showcases all over the world.  In order to deliver the Folk Alliance program, they sort of enlist the help of the various traditional music foundations from the home nation.  So in Wales, it's [foreign language] who are sort of a government-funded body to who -- you know, whose job is to develop traditional -- you know, to develop music traditions at all levels.  So it's, you know, Youth Development, they run courses for sort of adults, amateurs.  And then Career Development for people who are, you know, trying to make a go of it professionally.  EFDASS, which is the English Folk Dance and Song Society, do a similar job for the English artists.  Is it Creative Scotland who take the -- take the Scottish acts and, you know, Arts Council in Ireland?  And so they all kind of form this consortium, which is great.  So it means we have a bit of a support network when we go and -- when we go and showcase as well.  You know, not just sort of hanging out in a clique on our own.  
>> Steve Winick: It certainly helped us to connect with you.  So I thought I'd ask about that, so we could mention the good work of those organizations.  Which is really helping artists like you.  But I wanted to ask you about the song [foreign language], which you mentioned the sort of family connection to that.  And it just occurred to me that it must have been -- it must have been somewhat extraordinary to hear the song given that name connection and family connection, and how that came about, how you came to know that song.  
>> Jordan Price Williams: Well, it's a song that I first heard by another pioneering Welsh band called Carreg Lafar, who are very good friends of ours.  And have been the most incredibly supportive people of VRi.  And I'd already -- I've always loved it.  And I hadn't really paid a huge amount of attention to its provenance, until I had a -- I have a collection from the 20th century by Maria Jane Williams, who collected folk songs from Gwent and Morgannwg, which are the two sort of main parts of south -- of the bulk of South Wales.  And I just flicked through to find the words.  And at the back, these words were written by T.J. Williams, which is my father's initials.  And then it goes on to -- it said leaving Brecken to Guernsey.  And my father was a soldier in that same [inaudible].  It was just bizarre.  And my father died a few years ago.  So it was a real -- it was a really lovely thing to find this kind of connection.  So it's quite -- it's quite an emotional song for me to sing.  And the words are particularly emotive.
^M01:00:03
So, yeah, it was one of those funny moments, where you just think this feels -- there's too many coincidences here.  We can't not sing it.  
>> Steve Winick: Right.  Well, you did a really lovely job with it as well, we should say.  It's a beautiful song.  You performed it beautifully.  And you performed the whole concert beautifully.  We just loved the recording that you've submitted for us.  So we thank you very much for that.  So one thing that we've been watching quite a bit of is a documentary about Welsh folk music.  Which, actually, features Patrick in it quite a bit.  And it talks quite a bit about the revival of interest in Welsh folk music.  Patrick, you know, what was your involvement in that?  And talk about some of the issues that you got into in that film.  
>> Patrick Rimes: Well, I think, firstly, to say that, you know, we've been talking down, you know, Wales' sort of tradition, certainly, in comparison to the other -- some of the other Celtic nations.  And, actually, it's important to say that, you know, we are kind of back in a big way at the moment.  And there is, you know, a huge uptake in sort of interest in it.  Especially amongst young musicians.  And, also, an increase in sort of diversity in what people are doing with this traditional music.  Which is fantastic to see.  There are visibly more career pathways into, you know, doing this as a job, or as part of a job now than there would have been certainly 20 years ago.  Which is -- you know, which is great for young people, you know, to be able to consider it as a career opportunity, or a career option, rather than, you know, going off and doing something stupid like dentistry.  You know?  These incredibly talented people who can do all kinds of things.  And they always end up making the wrong choice.  But that's also fantastic for everybody else.  You know, as soon as there's, you know, a good core of young people doing interesting things, that really -- that drives everyone on.  And it's, you know -- and it's good for everybody.  Yeah, that documentary from by [inaudible] was a really great piece of work.  And, you know, conscious -- sort of consciously trying to market it outside of the British Isles.  And I think he particularly had the American market in mind.  And, I mean, he did a really good -- really good job of it.  
>> Steve Winick: Well, it really does come across that there's a lot of interest now, as you say, among young people specifically.  And that that was one of the things that was of interest to us, because that's just an important aspect of the continuity of tradition for there to be young people involved in it.  So we're glad that you are among those younger people who are taking up this tradition.  And it's not all folks in their 60s and 70s, as it's starting to be in many of our folk clubs.  So another question about the ways in which people get involved in traditional music, and the meanings that it has for them, involves this sort of -- the question of kind of ethnic or national identity.  And we got into that a little bit with the Welsh Language Movement.  But would you care to say any more about that, about the feeling of being Welsh specifically, and how that contributes to your wanting to play Welsh traditional music?
>> Jordan Price Williams: I would love to talk about that.  I think that living in Wales in 2021 is an incredibly exciting time.  It feels like Wales is a bit like an ocean liner I think.  It takes us a while to change.  And it feels like there is a change at the moment happening that is really tied into national identity.  And that has really been helped by the COVID-19 pandemic.  But it seems to be in all kinds of areas, and with not everybody, of course, but there is a new found confidence in what being Welsh means.  And that it's not necessarily -- I think my father's generation was a touch more maybe -- in order to sort of progress in life, maybe I think wanted to maybe move away from a Welsh identity, and to feel more British.  And there seems to be a backlash in many ways against that.  And that is where language and traditional culture really -- it's where I think it can solidify, it can create many deeper roots with your sense of national identity.  Because not only -- and it doesn't -- you know, that's not to say that without them that can't happen as well.  But, for me, personally, the language and traditional music, it constantly pours back into my sense of national identity, and my sort of [foreign language], my Welshness pours back as well into everything I do.  It's a really shared connection.  And it -- yeah, it's everything at the moment in Wales I think from our politics to our music, it feels just that a little bit more confident than maybe it was 10 years ago.  
>> Patrick Rimes: Yeah.  We've always found it easy enough to have a strong sense of sort of national identity when there's a rugby match on.  But this is kind of different, because, you know, everyone can play rugby, but, I mean, this stuff is actually -- it's actually ours.  You know?
>> Jordan Price Williams: Yeah.  
>> Steve Winick: Wonderful.  Well, once again, on behalf of the American Folk Life Center and the Library of Congress, I'd just like to thank the three of you, Patrick Rimes, Aneirin Jones, Jordan Price Williams.  The trio is VRi.  They performed in the Homegrown at Home Concert Series in 2021.  And you can find that video on the Library of Congress website, and on YouTube, along with this video interview.  So thank you so much to all three of you.  You gave us a lovely concert.  And this has been a lovely interview.  
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