^B00:00:13 >> Steve Winick: Welcome. I'm Steven Winick with the American Folk Like Center at the Library of Congress, and this interview is part of the 2021 Homegrown at Home Concert Series. In this series, we've asked wonderful, traditional musicians from all over the world, to record concert videos and send them to us. This began as a measure to keep everyone safe during the COVID-19 pandemic, but still maintain the tradition of bringing you Homegrown Concerts. So, on the Library of Congress website and YouTube channel, you'll find many concert videos both recorded live at the Library of Congress and since 2020, recorded in or near musicians homes and sent to us. So today, my special guest is Martin Carthy, a master, English folksinger and guitarist with a career spanning about 60 years. And we had so much to talk about that this is the second part of our interview. So, Martin, welcome again to the Library of Congress Virtual Interview Studio. >> Martin Carthy: Thank you. It's nice to be here. >> Steve Winick: It's good to see you again. So, we're going to begin approximately where we left off in the last interview, and that brings us to the point at which you joined a singing group. We were talking about Steeleye Span, where you got to play very loud on your guitar, and then of -- of course, you were in another group in which you practically didn't play the guitar very much at all. You mostly just sang. And that is The Watersons. So, I guess the Watersons preexisted as Norma's group. So, you can sort of begin by explaining how you came to meet Norma Waterson and join The Watersons. >> Martin Carthy: Well, Norma and I met first and -- and both fell madly in love. That's how -- at the time, she was married, and I wasn't. So, we circled each other for a -- for a while, and then we met up again, and this time, I -- I was married and she wasn't. So, we continued circling each other. Normal went away to -- The Watersons came off the road in, I suppose '68 -- '67, '68. And the whole -- the whole family just sort of splintered for a short while. Lal went to live in Leeds. Mike stayed in Hull. John Harrison went down to London. And Norma went to -- to Montserrat. >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: With her -- her then -- her then partner, who -- who -- they broke up pretty much immediately. They arrived in Montserrat, and she stayed there for three -- three, nearly four years, and became a DJ, and was very good at it, by the sound of it. She had a great time, Radio Antilles. And she had -- she had a great time. And the end of '71, beginning of '72, she came back. And she and I met, and we stopped circling each other and -- and -- well first, the thing that brought us together was making an album of Mike and Lal's songs, which -- which they, the two of them had written, either together or individually in the time that Norma was away. And Lal had always been, had always written poetry and had always written a few songs, but she actually really got down to cases and wrote some -- some utterly marvelous songs. And I was up there, I think, doing -- doing a Steeleye gig in Hull when -- when I was invited to go and stay -- stay at Lal's house with her and George. And so, that's what I did. And she played -- no, I beg your pardon. I stayed at Mike's house. I stayed at Mike's house, and -- and he took me over in -- the following day to -- to Lal because he -- he and she, wanted me to hear the songs they'd been writing. And one of the first songs that Lal played to me was a thing called Never the Same, and I was absolutely thunderstruck by their song. >> Steve Winick: So, you were in fact never the same after you heard it. >> Martin Carthy: I was -- oh, by God, I was not the same. And sang a few more songs and some of Mike's were -- were lovely. But there was a depth and a poetic -- poetic instinct in what Lal was writing that was just -- just -- I was at a loss for words then, and I still am. So-- >> Steve Winick: And these of course are -- Mike and Lal are of course Norma's brother and sister, and-- >> Martin Carthy: Exactly. >> Steven Winick: -and the three of them had been part of The Watersons prior to the breakup that you mentioned. >> Martin Carthy: Exactly. Exactly. And so, the -- the three of them were -- were back together by the time -- by the time -- by the time we thought of doing an album. I -- I spoke -- I went -- went back from -- from Hull, from the Steeleye gig and I met up with -- with Ashley Hutchings and I said, "You've really got to hear these songs that -- that Mike and Lal have written together, and but most of the time, individually." And said, "They're -- they're fabulous songs." [Inaudible] Sounds like an album to me. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: and the first thing he did was go and see Bill Leader and say, "There's a possibility. Are you interested?" And Bill said, "You bet, I'm interested." He -- he was no longer exclusively working for -- for Topic -- recording for Topic, but he had his own -- own label -- labels. >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: A label called Leader on which he put tradition rock -- the old-fashioned singers. The old -- you know, the old fellows and the old ladies. And -- and then he had an album for -- for traditionalists like me and all like anybody else who was interested, which he called Trailer. >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: [Inaudible] Trailer, which is a -- it was very successful, and he really didn't -- he thought it was his duty to -- to record the fact that one of the things that was happening to -- to traditional English music, was that it was changing in our hands, you know? Our scruffs were actually changing it and sometimes-- >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: -in very interesting ways. Sometimes not so interesting. But you know, that's the nature of the beast, isn't it? >> Steve Winick: Yes. You never know what's going to work. You have to experiment, so yes. >> Martin Carthy: Exactly. Exactly. So, so let me -- so, I mean it was immediately very interesting and the thing was set up, and kind of long story short, we took a week in May '72, Norma having come home for Christmas '71, and was proposing to go back, but she didn't go back to begin with. And then the two of us saw to it that she never went back. [Inaudible] it was -- it was all my doing. I was just -- I was free. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: And so was she. Well no, she was -- she was with somebody, but you know-- >> Steve Winick: One of those things, right? >> Martin Carthy: One of those things. It was -- it wasn't anything permanent. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: And I had a couple of hints by the way people were behaving that this was -- this was coming to an end. So, I-- >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: -did what I could to encourage that situation-- >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: -like we do. And in May, it's the -- it started far enough, my birthday, the 21st of May, and we started recording I think -- I think on the 20th? I'm not going to stake my life on it, but it -- my birthday was -- was there-- >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: -at that time. And we recorded all week, all that -- that week of -- of late May. And it was just we -- we were far too busy and far too busy actually recording and working on what we were going to do, and people had gone away and learned that the -- that the songs that -- it was agreed that we would record. And what Ashley had done, was -- was go and put a band together. >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: And he -- first person he rang was Richard Thompson. So, the band -- and then Dave Mattacks. So, the -- the band was -- was Ashley, me, Richard, and -- and Dave Mattacks. And then there were other people [inaudible]. >> Steve Winick: That -- those are -- those are no people to sneeze at, indeed. >> Martin Carthy: Yes, I -- I came very quickly to realize what a monstrously good musician Richard Thompson was then-- >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: -and is now. He's huge. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: But we -- we recorded it very successfully. It was very exciting, and everything came together like that. It was quite -- quite extraordinary. And that-- >> Steve Winick: And that -- that's the Bright Phoebus album? Was that the--? >> Martin Carthy: Yes. That is Bright Phoebus. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: You're quite right. And all sorts of fascinating things happened. One poor bloke came -- came to -- well, it was recorded in -- downstairs in Cecil Sharp House. And one time, a bloke came to deliver a parcel, and we let him in, and shoved a set of words in his hands. Said, "Sing that chorus. Will you [inaudible]?" "What? I'll never sing [inaudible]." "Yes, you are. Just -- just learn and sing it." And, "But I'm just delivering a parcel." "Well, we'll deal with that in a minute." Gave him the words and he sang. And so, he looked a bit grumpy to begin with and then really got into it. And didn't want to go. Even said, "Well, stay there." "No, got to go. Grumble, grumble, grumble." And so, we -- it was as light as that. ^M00:10:43 And there were all sorts of people in the room. I mean, Tim Heart and Maddy Prior were there for a couple of songs. Annie Briggs was there for -- for a few days. And it was a -- it was a total delight. A total delight. So many people. I mean, it seemed crazy. Like our folk scene was there. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: But we had a wonderful time, and we all went and slept at -- slept on the floor at Bill [inaudible] place. Miller and I managed to stay up talking until about 3 o'clock in the morning every night. And then go to our -- go to our -- our respective beds. >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: We were all very respectful of one another. And because there was a job to be done and we were both -- we were all focused like mad on it. And it was an utterly wonderful experience and I -- I went off to do a gig, which turned out to be an imaginary gig, somewhere around Bristol. And I got there, and there was no gig. So, I was fed up and Norma and I had agreed to meet at the Cleethorpes Folk Festival, and Cleethorpes is just outside Grimsby. It's on the northeast. It's -- it's very close to -- it's across the River Humber from -- from Hull. So, it's -- it's on the southern bank of the -- of the Humber. >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: And around the corner of it. And we met up there, and that's where I proposed and she said, "Yes. Alright. Yes." And we got married two and a half weeks later. Three weeks later. Just [inaudible] weeks later. >> Steve Winick: Well, it may -- it may be a bit late to say congratulations for that. But congratulations. And so, presumably that -- the relationship also led to your becoming part of The Watersons as a -- as a singing entity. >> Martin Carthy: Well, the -- The Watersons had already become a singing entity again with a guy called Bernie Vickers who was a really nice singer. Still is a very nice singer, who is from Hull. And he was Mike's business partner. And Mike being in business as a -- as a builder. And builder, painter, and decorator. He was -- he was apprenticed as a painter and decorator, and he learned all the other -- all the other bits from anybody he was working with. So, by the time he'd been at it for about 14 years, 15 years, he was -- he could build a house-- >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: -which was a pretty good position to be, right? >> Steve Winick: Very helpful skill, yes. >> Martin Carthy: Very helpful skill because we were [inaudible], we eventually moved a few miles up the road to -- to Robin Hood's Bay, to a farm. And we were all crammed into one house and there were lots of out buildings. So, the outbuildings needed turning into two more houses which happened very slowly because we didn't have any money and were you know, buying a -- I can't say -- I usually say a brick at a time. What could the thing -- it was a stone-built house, so the -- you know, the -- the bits of the stone were like that big. >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: So, millions of them. >> Steve Winick: A block at a time, perhaps? >> Martin Carthy: A block at a time. But we, it took five years, but we eventually ended up, each in our own house, each family. Lal's family, Norma's family, and Mike's family. And there were a couple of births while we were up there as well. Mike and Anne had -- had two more children. They arrived with two, and eventually left with four. Norma and I had Eliza. Eliza was born -- now, I'll get this right. [Inaudible] yes, by that time, we hadn't -- we were still in the -- we were still all in one house when Eliza was born in '75. And that was a drama as well because Eliza was a placenta previa. >> Steve Winick: Oh right. >> Martin Carthy: And that's -- that's -- that was an -- it could have been very nasty, but luck was on our side and George drove like the wind on the wrong side of the rode for the -- for the 13 miles which we [inaudible] Farm where we lived, and Scarborough Hospital. And we were -- we never met another car coming in the other direction. It's astonishing. >> Steve Winick: Thank goodness. Yes. >> Martin Carthy: We were actually praying for a police car, but yes, we got there, and Norma had -- had Eliza, which was wonderful. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: Thank you very much. >> Steve Winick: Congratulations on that as well. Yes. >> Martin Carthy: I mean when Norma and I first got married in '72, this is now '75, but when we got married in '72, the first thing I did which was incredibly helpful of me, was join the Albion Country Band, which was a guaranteed loss maker, and yes -- I remember getting one check where the -- the bloke who was organizing it all said, "Everybody gets paid this week. Nine weeks wages." And we thought, "Wow, nine week's wages." And there was my -- and I looked at my check and it was 45 pounds-- >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: -for my nine week's work. And how we managed -- how we survived, how we didn't starve to death I'll never know. But we -- we managed not to. But it was -- I really enjoyed the Albion Country Band. It ended up as a very good band indeed, and then we just had to turn our backs on it and walk away because-- >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: -it was hopeless. But a bloody good band [inaudible]. >> Steve Winick: Yes, made some beautiful recordings as well. So. >> Martin Carthy: Oh, yes. The album, The Battle of the Field, was-- >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: -there's some -- some really, really, very, very good stuff on that. But there we are. There we are. >> Steve Winick: There you are. >> Martin Carthy: And short -- very shortly after that, and I -- I'd been an occasional fifth member of the -- of The Watersons. And if I had a night off, I would go and be a -- be a Waterson, maybe in the second half, and really enjoyed it. And finding out how to sing with -- with those people, because they're -- they had changed the rules entirely. >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: They really did change everything when they came on the scene, because all groups back then, we called them groups then, not bands, and all groups back then were based on The Weavers. You know, there was always -- always a banjo player, always -- always a guitar player, and always a girl singer. You know? And the others could sing, too, but that was -- that was seemed to be the rule. >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: And along came -- came The Watersons and you see pictures of them brandishing guitars, but what they became known for was this way of singing that they had devised, well, Norma, Lal, and Mike had devised, from when they were tiny, because they always used to sing together. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: And the two girls were altos and that meant that Mike had to find a way of singing with these two -- with these two altos. And he -- he manufactured a fabulous range. I mean, he had a range of three octaves or something. >> Steve Winick: Wow. >> Martin Carthy: He could go right down -- right down into the dungeon to sing, and he go could way, way, way high. And it was just -- his capacity and their capacity for invention would blow your mind, but they did an awful lot in -- pretty close to just -- just unison. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: And the sort of -- the sort of blend, the sort of thing you can achieve in -- you know, with two altos and one, you know, what do you want to call him? Tenor or occasional bass. >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: And like Mike, is extraordinary and when they would suddenly burst out into harmony, I remember the first time I heard them sing in the Troubadour, they sang -- what's the -- the song that -- Three Score and Ten. And Three Score and Ten. And every -- every chorus, they would sing three -- three -- "There were three score and ten, boys and men, from Grimsby Town, from the Yarmouth down to Scarborough, many hundreds more were drowned." And they would -- they would just this great, bloom of harmony with them. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: And you could see people in the audience just rocking back on their seats. They'd never heard anything like it. But then, they would go back into this -- this -- this extraordinary, almost unison. >> Steve Winick: Yes. One of the great things about that situation that you're describing where you had two altos and a tenor/bass person-- >> Martin Carthy: Yes. >> Steve Winick: -was that, you know, it wasn't the standard arrangement where someone was singing the melody, and the other people were singing harmony parts. You couldn't always tell who was on the melody. The melody note always came, but it might be passed around among the three singers in an unconventional-- >> Martin Carthy: Absolutely right. >> Steve Winick: -way. ^M00:20:31 >> Martin Carthy: Absolutely right. You could [inaudible]. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: "Oh, there it is. There's the [inaudible]." >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: Right. Absolutely brilliant. Learning to sing -- a thing -- sing that way, and Norma said to me, "If you want to know, the thing to do, is you sing the tune until you can't, and then sing a harmony." >> Steve Winick: Oh, wow. Yes. >> Martin Carthy: That's the rule. That's the rule. And I -- it was bent and -- bent and bent completely out of shape sometimes, but-- >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: -but that was -- that was very -- just -- just stick to the -- stick to the melody until you get a bright idea. Then go off and do it, you know, but [inaudible], you'll figure it out. >> Steve Winick: Yes. So, how as it, figuring it out, I mean, because you had to learn? >> Martin Carthy: [Inaudible] The only thing I regretted was that I couldn't do -- I didn't have that fabulous bass voice that John Harrison had. I mean, they did -- they did-- >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: -a song which they'd learned from the Elliotts of Birtley, and what's it called? Damnit. Rap Her to Bank. >> Steve Winick: Right. Rap Her to Bank. >> Martin Carthy: And they actually recorded it on -- on the Red album, and it wasn't -- didn't manage to get out. And it did -- but it's available. If you ever hear The Watersons sing it, just --what they do is just astonishing and it's wonder -- because it's a wonderful song, and yes. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: I used to wish that we could sing that song and I could sing that low, yes. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: No part, because the [inaudible]. It's wonderful, but I couldn't. So, I just -- went with what I'd got. >> Steve Winick: You do what you can. Exactly. >> Martin Carthy: Yes, and it's -- it was -- very exciting stuff. Really, really was. Is. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: It changed everything. Every [inaudible]. >> Steve Winick: Yes. Yes. Well, and so, this is you then in your adopted family, the family that you married into-- >> Martin Carthy: Yes. >> Steve Winick: -performing, and ultimately that also led to you know, you mentioned Eliza being born in 1975, but this led to you working with Eliza as a great musician in her own right later on in -- in Waterson-Carthy. So, talk a little about that experience, about forming a band with your own nuclear family. >> Martin Carthy: Well, it was -- we -- we -- we were coming to the states to -- to go to West Virginia, Augusta. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: And Norma was doing some work for [inaudible]. I -- especially on Gypsy Singers, and I was doing -- I was doing other workshops. So, playing -- just playing people stuff and trying to get people to understand or just listen to some of the extraordinary things that -- that all those so-called -- so-called old-fashioned singers get up to, because they're -- they're just absolutely wonderful and liberating and different. They don't follow the -- follow the rules at all. And that's especially true, Gypsy Singers. They -- they just -- they seem to exist in what I've sometimes called a pre -- oh, what do they call that? Pre -- pre world template scale. >> Steve Winick: Oh, right. Yes. >> Martin Carthy: And some of the things they get up to with -- with a mind like that, is -- utterly wonderful and rhythmically just entirely distinct. Wonderful. When I first heard Levi Smith and then his brother, oh Martin, come on, wake up, Jasper. Yes, Levi and Jasper Smith singing Georgie, I was just stunned, you know, just -- and I'd also got my hands on some -- some recordings, cylinder recordings from before the First World War. And some of the music that was -- that set people like Gardiner and Vaughan Williams and obviously Percy Grainger-- >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: -and Cecil Sharp, too. Cecil Sharp did a bit of recording, but he'd ultimately didn't like it. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: I -- because he always talked about -- if you're not recording, and you're listening to the tune, you've got to -- when I write it down, he says, I get a better sense of the tune. And I've -- but that's what he -- that's what he said, and that's what he believed. I can't -- I don't understand because I -- I've benefitted so much from hearing those very old recordings and that-- >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: -and they're pretty -- they were quite damaged, some of them, but you can still get a good -- good grasp of what -- what's happening. And it's very exciting and very, very mind-expanding. It's wonderful stuff. >> Steve Winick: Yes, I find if you read those old collectors' writings, a lot of them didn't really think about the posterity of it. They wanted to make a recording so that they could produce a transcription, by listening to the recording many times rather than having the singer sing it many times, which was noble in its own right, but you know, not thinking about the value that the recording itself was going to bring to the world, it was just part of their time, I guess. It wasn't, you know, there was no malice in it, but it would have been great if more of them had saved and/or made recordings from those days. Yes. >> Martin Carthy: Yes. >> Steve Winick: Yes. Wonderful. So, yes, so you were going to tell us a little about forming Waterson-Carthy. >> Martin Carthy: Well, yes. So, we went to -- we went to Augusta in West Virginia. It was just an utterly wonderful week, and then we discovered that at the end of the week, and then Peggy Seeger was there, and it was just after Ewan had died. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: And so -- she was doing some stuff as well. And she -- well, we all suddenly realized that at the end of the week, now the people who were coming to the workshops were giving concerts every now and again, and at the end of the week, the tutors had to stand up and be counted. And the three of us had -- Eliza had recently, well, more -- I was going to say, recently started on the fiddle. No, she was playing the fiddle by then, but she was measuring it out very carefully, and but always -- was always wonderfully musical in what she did. So, we just had three, four, five songs that we could make a set out of. >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: One of them was a Norma solo, which was -- which stole the show every night, which was a song written by a Kent miner's wife, because it was during -- an awful lot of trouble with the -- with the miners, the coal miners in all over Britain. It was a wonderful song. I'm just trying -- I'm struggling to remember. What was it? Coal Not Dole. >> Steve Winick: Coal Not Dole, right. I remember that one. That was, yes. >> Martin Carthy: And it was -- and we had a -- we had a couple of other -- couple of other songs that Eliza and I did, and Norma would sing. One of them was about a bloke who watching a swallow, building a nest, and then how jealous he was of this swallow that he could -- the person who's singing the song wants to get out of there, basically. And [inaudible] the swallow building the nest. See the -- see the -- there's something. Seeing the freedom of that bird, it made your -- it made your soul unrest. A lovely song. I think we -- we'd sort of gone off it after a while, but I always liked it. I always liked it. But I'm a sentimental old bugger. There you go. Confession Number 433. >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: But I always had a huge soft spot for that because -- and we had enough for a set. And the three of us did a marvelous little set, and got tremendous applause. The one who absolutely blew me away, I must say, because I knew that that she was -- we'll call her a formidable musician, doesn't even begin to -- to cover it, and that's Peggy Seager. >> Steve Winick: Oh, yes. >> Martin Carthy: She sang a couple of songs. One of them was about -- one of them was about cigarette smoking, about tobacco which was just astonishing, and the other one was, I can only describe as a sort -- as a torch song. And she sang it basically this is her conversing with -- with a prospective lover when she -- and she's basically saying to him, "You don't know how lucky you are." >> Steve Winick: Very nice. >> Martin Carthy: And that's what the song is called, "You Don't Know How Lucky You Are." She sang it. And she sang it as a torch song and it was just riveting and astounding and -- you know, congratulated it afterwards, just -- because you actually began to get an instinct of that woman's range. >> Steve Winick: Yes. Well, she's one of-- >> Martin Carthy: Emotional range is astonishing. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: And she's made a couple of albums in more recent times, which are just breathtaking. She met -- did a song about the Titanic which is, oh, absolutely-- >> Steve Winick: Amazing-- >> Martin Carthy: -you know the song? >> Steve Winick: -singer, songwriter, and performer, and she's one of our favorites here at the Library, too. We have many of her collections and her family's collections here. So, we've worked with her quite a bit and you can find videos of her on the Library of Congress website, in fact-- >> Martin Carthy: Wonderful. >> Steve Winick: -at out Symposia and things. So, yes, so -- so, this led ultimately to the first tour for Waterson-Carthy, or how did that work out? >> Martin Carthy: Well, we just -- we decided we were going to make some kind of an album, and we did a few gigs and made an album, but we asked Tony Engle at Topic if he'd like to do an album, and he just looked, and looked, and looked at us -- looked at Norma and said, "What kind of a question is that? Of course I want an album. Come on." >> Steve Winick: Right. Right. >> Martin Carthy: "Get working." So, we did, and we just did produce that first album, which was -- which I -- I treasure. I do love that first album because [inaudible] anything else, we -- we uncovered that lovely song, the -- a song that came from the friends at Staithes -- the Staithes Fishermen's Choir. And it's -- you're going to tell me what the name of the song is now. It's the -- oh. >> Steve Winick: It's not the one that was a [inaudible] hymn. >> Martin Carthy: That's it. That's the one. >> Steve Winick: Yes. We have it as of course, "I Bid You Goodnight." >> Martin Carthy: "We'll Bid You Goodnight," yes. >> Steve Winick: Is a version of that song, but I can't remember what that earlier version was called, yes. >> Martin Carthy: Yes. >> Steve Winick: So, yes. >> Martin Carthy: And it, yes. I had the name just then. >> Steve Winick: Sorry. >> Martin Carthy: No, no, not your fault. And I'll suddenly remember it and interrupt myself in a second. >> Steve Winick: Well, I'll tell -- I'll tell our listeners that I've written a blog post about some of our versions of that song, where I do mention this, and so the title is in there if you look for, "I Bid You Goodnight" on the Library of Congress blogs. You will find the -- the reference that Martin is talking about, yes. >> Martin Carthy: We were so happy to have gotten this recording. When Norma first -- was handed it and played it to me, I just said, "[Inaudible] that's the original version of -- isn't it? That's it?" And he said, "No," and just looks at me with this great big smile on her face and went, "Yes." >> Steve Winick: Amazing. >> Martin Carthy: And we just sang it, and everything just fell into place. Absolutely perfect, like that. Wonderful. And yes, we just -- it seemed to me we just went from strength to strength. And we did invite -- Eliza had met this -- this young lad called Saul Rose who was -- he was a good melodeon player, and he turned up at the Rockford Folk Club, and played a couple of tunes. One which he'd learned from -- from Andy, oh, what's his surname? Andy? He's a wonderful box player. >> Steve Winick: Andy Cutting? >> Martin Carthy: Andy Cutting, thank you very much. This is an effort of memory. >> Steve Winick: It takes a village sometimes. >> Martin Carthy: I should write all these names down and have them in a list in front of me. Andy Cutting, and the second one was a John Kirkpatrick tune. And I mean, he played the Andy Cutting tune, and it was -- it was -- it was Andy Cutting. And then he played the John Kirkpatrick tune, and I mean, John has that massive box-- >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: -with all [inaudible] on it. And Saul managed to play the whole thing. And Eliza went up to him afterwards and invited him to join -- join with her and eventually with us. And I just -- well, what are you doing? She said, "He can play, but he doesn't have a repertoire. I can give him a repertoire." See? That was how confident she was because she'd been going through every, every, single tune book that was available and a lot that weren't. >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: And she would -- she would -- when she got a new book, she would sit on our stairs, in the house that we lived in, she would sit on our stairs and she would play every tune in the book, because her sight reading was absolutely wonderful. She'd play all these tunes. And our next door neighbor was the milkman and occasionally it would wake them up and they would say something. "We heard Eliza playing last night," and I'd say, "Oh, I'm terribly sorry. Did she wake you up?" "No, no. Don't stop her. We her playing, and we love it. So, no, no. It just sends us back off to sleep, and that's fine. You know, don't stop her." Because she was playing-- >> Steve Winick: That's very sweet, yes. >> Martin Carthy: -oh, I thought so. And that was the place that sounded the best. She'd sit on the -- on the whole stairs, and it would echo up to the top of the house. Wonderful. >> Steve Winick: Great. >> Martin Carthy: So, yes. Yes. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: And that was -- I mean, we made several albums, and it was -- we had a great time on the road and Norma, oh, Norma was the most fabulous -- fabulous leader. She led by example, and was just extraordinary, and very, very exciting. >> Steve Winick: Wonderful. >> Martin Carthy: Most exciting. I think it's probably one of the very, very exciting things that I've been involved in, in my -- and helped to create, in my -- in my entire musical life. Absolutely wonderful. >> Steve Winick: Wonderful. Well, there was one more project that I wanted to talk about before turning to more thematic questions about your relationship to songs, and that was Brass Monkey, because it was such an interesting group, combining brass with diatonic button accordions and guitar and singing. So, explain how Brass Monkey came about. >> Martin Carthy: Well, I was working at the National Theater, and doing a dramatization of -- of the book, "Lark Rise to Candleford." And Keith, the playwright was -- was Keith Dewhurst. And what he'd done was get the -- the book, "Lark Rise to Candleford," and it split into two, "Lark Rise," and then, "Candleford." >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: And he got "Lark Rise," and he took every -- every line in it that had inverted commas, any, any kind of speech, he just lifted it up and put it on a piece of paper, and then stitched it altogether into a script. And what it was -- it was extraordinary. What it required of the actors was for them to believe that this -- this stuff was coming out of their mouths for the first time. And I think actors have to do that anyway. >> Steve Winick: That's right, yes. >> Martin Carthy: But -- and they went at it with a will. They really did. And when we did the first, the first run through, having rehearsed the whole thing, I think it was something like three hours long. And so, had to do a bit of -- a bit of very serious pruning. So, I'll always remember Bill [inaudible] standing up to -- in front of everybody and saying, "Everybody's going to be upset. They're going to lose some of their favorite bits. You're all going to do it. You're all -- but it has to be done, and I'm going to do it. And if you want to throw things at me, come and do it, but don't expect me to change." And he just went at it with his pruning knife and there was, "Oh, no." A lot of, "Oh, that's my favorite bit." "Well, I warned you." And-- >> Steve Winick: I'm sure some of them were his favorite bits as well. That's-- >> Martin Carthy: Oh, absolutely, yes. >> Steve Winick: -just sort of how it goes, yes. >> Martin Carthy: Some great moment -- there were some great moments in it. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: But it was -- it needed to be done, and I'd been one of the people who was fortunate enough to be in the band. I was -- I was a guest singer with the -- with the Albion band. >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: And there were other guest singers and guest musicians, but what it did was introduce me to a trumpet player called Howard Evans. He's now the late Howard Evans, who was really -- he was really, really interested in traditional song, and he kept talking about -- about Vaughan Williams and how much Vaughan Williams loved the [inaudible] mode. And he'd day, "Are there really songs in the [inaudible]?" I said, "Yes, yes, of course there are." I sang him a couple of them, and he went, "Oh, oh my God, that's fabulous." And I was making an album at the time, making an album called -- oh, "Because it's There." And it was a very important album for me actually, because I was beginning to get hold of -- of a more sensible way of singing, because it -- I'd gotten into all sorts of stupid habits with my singing in the 70s, and getting out of it was important. Getting out of those habits. ^M00:41:07 And '78, the album was released. And what -- what happened was that I started to make the album, and I'd asked John Kirkpatrick to be involved and he was, and we played a few things together. And at one point, I said, "This trumpet player, can I -- and what I'd like to do is ask him to be on that album. Would you mind?" He said, "No, I don't mind. Go. Do what you want. It's your album." So, okay. I went and asked Howard if he'd like to play on a couple of tracks. And he was -- oh, he was really excited. And I don't remember how many he played on eventually on that -- on that album, maybe three or four? >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: And he was -- he was really prepared to work hard, and he didn't have to work hard. All he had to do was play -- play the melody. I know, "Who's that bloke? Who's that bloke playing squeezebox?" And I'd say, "He's good, isn't he?" I said, "Yes, that's John. John Kirkpatrick." "Oh." So, they met -- they met through the earphones, you know? And they met later on, and I mean John is a formidable musician. And he then said, "Boy, why don't we -- why don't we ask Howard -- why don't you ask Howard if he'd like to come and do a couple of gigs with us?" because we were doing duo gigs. And I said, "Yes, we could do that. You know, he's just -- give him some music." And, "Alright." And gave him a few of the tunes. And he just fell into it. He just loved it. Absolutely just -- was absolutely wonderful. And he said, "Do you not mind if I have the music, because I -- I can't work without music. I need the music in front of me." [Inaudible], "Saul, don't worry about that. Yes, we'll have a music stand and you're going to play on -- you're going to -- if that's what you need, you do it." So, he did. And he made a -- made it his -- made it something to aim at, that he was-- >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: -that he was going -- he was going to do a gig without looking at the music, and he said, and I always remember him coming off the stage one night, when we were still a trio and he said, "Never looked at the music once tonight." And I said, "Well done." He said, "And it worked." So, it was a big moment. Okay. But then, John said, "Why don't we expand?" He said, "I can get Martin Brinsford." Now, he played all sorts of percussion, and he plays C-melody sax, and he plays wonderful mouth organ. He's a great harmonica player. And said, "Yes, alright." And he said -- and Howard said, "Well, why don't I ask Roger?" And Roger Williams was part of the -- the Lark Rise band. >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: "Why don't I ask him?" "Yes, okay, we'll do that." And so, we -- we managed to have a rehearsal with four-fifths of what became Brass Monkey. Two rehearsals and they were all different four-fifths. So, when we went up on the stage at Tulum, just outside Hastings, we had no idea what it was going to sound like. And it -- we stood on the stage, and I said, "Are we ready, John?" And he said, "Yes." "Okay, well here we go. One, two, three, four." And we launched into it. We started to play, and I just started to laugh because it was so bloody brilliant. Oh. So exciting. And I mean, two superb players, especially -- especially Roger. He could play anything on that trombone -- bass trombone. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: Astonishing musician. >> Steve Winick: And it's funny, because it's not something you ever saw on the folk scene, really, these you know, brass musicians, but it was part of rural English traditional music-- >> Martin Carthy: Absolutely. >> Steve Winick: -of village bands always had kind of brass instruments in them. So, you know, yes. So, it's kind of -- and affectation of the folk scene to not have them in a way, yes. >> Martin Carthy: People would talk it up, "We like your experimental band." I'd say, "It's not experimental band. It's people making music, for God's sake." >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: Yes. And you know, that -- that went down quite well. But tried to be really blunt about it. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: But it was just a -- it was a fabulous band. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: It really was. >> Steve Winick: Yes, and again, made some great recordings that -- that the people can still hear today. So, wonderful. Well, thanks for talking about that, and like I said, before we finish, I'd like to turn to some more general questions about your -- your work and your attraction to these songs. So, what -- what does still draw you to old songs after all this time? >> Martin Carthy: Well, old songs are -- are records of some of the appalling things that human beings do to each other. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: You know, it just -- it's just terrifying. Terrifying things that people get up to. They're as good as any -- they're as good as anything else, anywhere else. You know, it's some of the stories you get in opera are as heart rending as that. But these songs manage to do it in a fraction of the time. >> Steve Winick: Right. >> Martin Carthy: With -- and you -- if you need to do any adjusting, any linguistic adjusting, you're welcome to do it. The wonderful thing about traditional music is it's your playground. You can do -- you do what you damn please with it. And just you know, just keep telling the truth, basically. Telling -- try and find out the truth in the song-- >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: -and then -- then you're free. Then you're free. And you, very often, find yourself actually cutting, cutting and just cutting it right down. >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: So, there it is now. What do you think of that? >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: What do you think of them potatoes? It's just -- it's a -- there's a -- the wonderful thing about those old songs is the more you sing them, the more you find out about them. I mean, there's still things I'm -- why am I surprised? There's still things I'm finding out about it, you know? What a -- what a position to be in? >> Steve Winick: Yes. >> Martin Carthy: You know, you don't -- you know, what's going to -- you're going to walk around the corner and somebody's going to jump up and bite you on the bum. Ow. What are you doing? What do you think of that one over there? You know? Okay. It's a fabulously privileged position that I'm in. You know? Thank you very much. I'm 80 years old and there's still so much to find out. The more you find out, the more there is to find out. Yippee. Isn't that great? >> Steve Winick: That is lovely. And you know, I think that is a good sentiment possibly on which to say we could talk all day, but we don't have the time with the crew to continue forever. And so, we may have to cut this interview short at this point, but-- >> Martin Carthy: Okay. >> Steve Winick: -that was just a beautiful sentiment to have right there at the end of -- of what was a lovely two-part interview with the wonderful Martin Carthy. So, Martin, thank you so much for coming back and doing a second part of this interview so we could get more insights on your career and your connection to this wonderful music that you've been playing now, for as I said, about 60 years. Thank you so much. >> Martin Carthy: My pleasure. Thank you very much. The only quibble I've got is that I've never had a career. I don't have a career. Lucky old me. I don't have a career. >> Steve Winick: Well, I will -- I stand corrected. >> Martin Carthy: No, no, no, no. See, it's something I -- I failed to say last time and I just -- I don't have a career. It's one of the wonderful things about this music, it takes you somewhere you can't -- you can't do anything other than just follow your nose. It's wonderful. >> Steve Winick: So, you've had a -- you've had a life in music rather than a career? >> Martin Carthy: Absolutely. What a life? What a lucky lad? Oh, boy. Thank you. >> Steve Winick: Wonderful. >> Martin Carthy: Thank you. Thank anybody. Thank music. >> Steve Winick: Thank you once again to Martin Carthy. >> Martin Carthy: Thank you, Steve. Thank you very much.