^B00:00:13 >> Stephen Winick: Welcome. I'm Stephen Winick of the American Folklife Center of the Library of Congress. For many years we presented the Homegrown Concert Series featuring the best in traditional folk music and dance from around the world. In the year 2020 because of the global pandemic, we shifted to producing an online video concert series which we've been calling Homegrown at Home. So now in 2021 this is our second year of Homegrown at Home concerts. We have always enjoyed Son Jarocho music, a regional Mexican music style that has had a vigorous revival in California. So this year we were very happy to bring the Son Jarocho Band, Cambalache, into our series. So today I'm speaking with members of that band. Now one challenge that I have in doing these interviews is pronouncing the names of people from a wide variety of cultures. So rather than introducing people myself I tend to ask them to say their own names. So if you could introduce yourselves to our audience that would be wonderful. >> Xochi Flores: Hello everyone. My name is Xochi Flores, and I play, sing, dance with Los Cambalache. >> Cesar Castro: My name is Cesar Castro. I also play with Cambalache, and I'm from Veracruz and live in Los Angeles. >> Stephen Winick. So I guess our first question we, during the pandemic, we asked people how they were doing, you know, in that weird new life that we all had and now we're sort of asking people how are things coming out of that? How are you, how are things emerging from the pandemic for you? >> Xochi Flores: I think that things are emerging slowly for us. Slowly but surely in terms of the band. We, you know, are doing more in-person events and stuff like that, but it's slow and we're cautious. We do a lot of school events. So, you know, we have to be very careful, we test, you know, things like that that we never had to do before, but yeah it's good. I think we took a lot for granted before that we're learning to be really grateful for now. >> Stephen Winick: And, you know, I guess we can begin just by asking, you know, the very basic question of what is Son Jarocho music? >> Cesar Castro: Well, Son Jarocho is today the music of Veracruz, the Gulf of Mexico, but it's also the music of different communities, different communities in the world, in the US and South America, Europe, Asia, and it has a history in Africa, the West Africa, the slavery and the North Africa through Arabs that conquered South Spain for 8 centuries. So all that mix imagine travels at some point in history to the Americas and lands in Veracruz and we create this very joyful music. It's very rhythmic, very powerful with strings, with percussion, percussion that doesn't include drums like congas. No, it's the percussion on the donkey jaw, on the feet and the traema [phonetic] and, yes, we have one with the tambourine, but that's, that's what Son Jarocho is in a few words. >> Xochi Flores: I think that what Cesar said about the mix of cultures is important but also like the, the human spirit, the human spirit and the resilience that we have and the need that we have to be happy, to express happiness and to express our strengths through music and through dance and poetry and such. So I think like given that the situation of, it was a slave port, you know, let's be real, Veracruz was a slave port and there were African slaves brought there, there were Spanish and Arabic and so like there was a lot of conquering and just like today, right? >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. >> Xochi Flores: So, but this is a testament to the human spirit and the need to feel happy and to express happiness and joy. >> Stephen Winick: Wonderful, yeah. It's an amazing music. It's just something that, you know, I think everyone can enjoy just by hearing it, but within the context of the culture that's evolved sort of in both Veracruz and California there is this event that people have called the fandango. Tell us a little bit about the importance of the fandango for the Son Jarocho music. ^M00:05:08 >> Xochi Flores: The importance of the fandango, I can speak to the importance of the fandango here in the US, but because that's my experience with it primarily. We use it as a tool, as a tool for convening, as a tool for community engagement, as a tool for gathering and lifting up voices. Ideally it's a place where everyone is welcome no matter your age, your gender, your sexual orientation, your color, your level of musicality or musicianship. And we've cultivated spaces where, you know, it's often a place where that we don't experience any other place in our, you know, surroundings, but do you want to speak to fandango in Veracruz? >> Cesar Castro: Yes, of course. In Veracruz, it has the longest history. That's where it emerged is from this cultural mix and it created spaces to gather, to express, to release and a lot of it I find through the verses, the traditional verses and the title of the songs that there was so much oppression and fear that through the animals they were singing about certain people like the landlords, the old school landlords from the fields. So you [inaudible] is one of the, a canelo [phonetic] like these attitudes, human attitudes through hidden -- >> Xochi Flores: -- metaphors. >> Cesar Castro: Yes, metaphors definitely hiding something because if they hear you, they will kill you. So that was a way to resist. And then when I joined the fandango in 1990s that was, we weren't conscious about it. We were more about getting together celebrating anything that's something that we love to do, you know, celebrate, celebrate, get together, eat, play music, but without knowing that we were also at the same time oppressing especially women. So now with the conversations and interaction with other people little by little it's moving and getting once again, I assume once again a good space that responds to the times of society. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah, I think that's really important and it's interesting that you mention both of those things. I mean the fact of all of those metaphors coding relationships among people is common in other music styles too especially African American styles where people had to be very quiet about those things, but they learned ways to say them. And the evolution of events like fandango is really important to keep people, you know, coming to the music and to expand the reach of these music styles. So it's wonderful that you brought both of those things up. One thing I've noticed in Son Jarocho music that you don't see as much in every style is that the dance is right there on the stage with the music. Tell us a little about the importance of dance to the Son Jarocho aesthetic. ^M00:08:55 >> Xochi Flores: Well, the dance is integral to the whole aesthetic because it is the primary percussion, it is the foundation by which a fandango happens. There's no fandango without a traema or people to stamp our rhythms, dancers. So we use it because not every group, I think every group does it use? >> Cesar Castro: Most. >> Xochi Flores: Yeah, it's a drum, it's our drum, it's our heart beat. >> Stephen Winick: Cool. So, yeah, Cesar? >> Cesar Castro: Yes, I would like to add that that's how, that's what you say that's how fandangos happen with the traema but also it has this space limited to certain number of couples, which also balances the sound on the fandango. When you have too many dancers and a handful of musicians, it would totally take over. So musically estetica musica it has a touch, it's very, very sensitive even though you see people just stomping really hard, but it's not just hard it has to keep certain level. >> Stephen Winick: Right. Very interesting. >> Cesar Castro: You need to know. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah, so it's something that you have to learn by going to fandangos and just getting acculturated to that. >> Xochi Flores: Yeah, there are no answers. It's very nuanced, it's very experiential. So like it's like you get up there, if you're a beginner, you don't get up there with another beginning. You just don't. >> Cesar Castro: [Laughter] No. That is a formula for [inaudible]. >> Xochi Flores: Yeah, that's a formula for disaster. >> Stephen Winick: Interesting. So talk a little about the other instruments besides, you know, the foot percussion, but what other instruments are a big part of Son Jarocho? >> Cesar Castro: I would say harana [phonetic]. After traema you have to see haranas, which is the strumming guitar. We cannot say 8 string or 6 string, 7, we count with chords [phonetic]. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. >> Cesar Castro: Even though some of the chords are not double stringed so you end up with 5 and you can have 5 double or all single if [inaudible] and strumming. Very rhythmic. It goes linked, well, everything is linked, but this one is really close to the traema it's communicating because it holds the groove. It's pretty much like the bass player and the drum section or rhythm section. >> Stephen Winick: Right. >> Cesar Castro: That's what it would be, you know, haranas and traemas are very important. So they come in different sizes depending on the region, depending on the musician they will play the size they want and they're very loud and usually there's a lot of them. >> Stephen Winick: Right. >> Cesar Castro: The [inaudible] haranas from one melodic guitar, which is called racento [phonetic]. The melodies can be carried by melodic 4-string or 5 guitar, plucked, or violin or harp. Those are the main instruments and then the hand percussion tambourine or donkey jaw are also very popular. More recently they added the [inaudible], which is a wooden box -- >> Stephen Winick: -- oh, yeah, yeah -- >> Cesar Castro: -- and you play the keys, metal keys. It's very, very low on the fine and that would land in the percussion side as well. >> Xochi Flores: And bass. >> Cesar Castro: And also some double bass, upright bass. There are baby bass like in Cambalache we play with baby bass with one [inaudible] and that's it. Some regions they play a little weddle or a leaf, a lemon tree leaf, but that's regional or by bands. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. Very cool, yeah. I love to see the variety in instruments. I mean, yeah, the haranas there's always a bunch of them but it's great to see the harps and the violins as well every now and then in those context. So, yeah, it's a beautiful music that we, as I said, we've presented it several times over the years so we really like to have Son Jarocho. So could you talk a little about the songs, too, the repertoire that exists within this community? ^M00:13:44 >> Cesar Castro: Yes, there's two, two ways to read what we play because there's the fandango repertoire and there's the band repertoire. So it's not the same when you open a show than when you open a fandango. >> Stephen Winick: It makes sense, yeah. >> Cesar Castro: The traditional song to open the fandango where you introduce yourself through verses, introduce your mood, your intentions, you share how grateful you are from being there and -- >> Xochi Flores: -- you ask for permission. >> Cesar Castro: Ask for permission. >> Xochi Flores: To sing, to be present. >> Cesar Castro: So, yes, you, that's your chance. Also you communicate. If you lead the fandango, you have to communicate with the dancers either by reading the energy just like a dee jay I always say. Dee jays know what songs bring everyone to the dance floor, but for how long you're going to play a fast beat song so that's something that you have to be very sensitive and that's how you run the fandango until you go to 3AM, 4AM you play those low jams. >> Stephen Winick: Right. >> Cesar Castro: And at 5, depending on the time of the year at 5, 6 you start playing the good morning songs and depending on how young you are you can play some songs at 10AM after a whole night of having fandango. >> Stephen Winick: Wow. >> Xochi Flores: So Cambalache likes to keep it true somewhat to the fandango, and we play that song that Cesar was talking about where you ask permission, where you introduce yourself, it's called seeke cere [phonetic] that's the introductory song for a fandango, but it's also our opening song, but then we also play, we play traditional songs like [Spanish songs] La Bamba, but we do re-interrupt verses, we do change the verses to reflect our reality, to reflect some of what's going on around us and what's going on with us and that's the beauty of this music is that, you know, we can do that and that's what keeps it alive and relevant today. So we do [Spanish song], which is we do it, our verses are about immigration and why people leave their homes and when they get, like they leave their homes because life is tough, life is shitty and then they come here and life is still pretty horrible. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. >> Xochi Flores: And so we talk about that and, you know, we really do try to reflect our own realities in all of our songs. >> Stephen Winick: And was that, sorry, was that traditionally done also that people would write new words for the songs? >> Xochi Flores: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. >> Cesar Castro: And you need to know. >> Xochi Flores: The form. >> Cesar Castro: The form definitely and also depending on the song how would you use your metaphors. Like in Bamba you improvise in a certain way than when you play [Spanish song] then you have to use the metaphor of [inaudible] but there's some songs like [inaudible] and [inaudible]. [inaudible] is the snake and [inaudible] is -- >> Xochi Flores: -- snake. >> Cesar Castro: Another type. >> Xochi Flores: Rattlesnake is [inaudible]. >> Cesar Castro: And people switch verses from one to the other one like, hey, if you do that, then what's the point now? The challenge is sing about [inaudible] and [inaudible] has venom? >> Xochi Flores: Uh-huh. >> Cesar Castro: And the sound of the tail -- >> Xochi Flores: -- rattle. >> Cesar Castro: So come on, go, go for it. From there take it. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah, that makes sense and it also shows there's sort of different levels at which, you know, people can enter this but, you know, the masters have, you know, their own rules and styles for doing things and, yeah, it's really interesting to be able to observe that and to hear you explain it because this is something that I think our audiences would never necessarily have known about. One thing our audiences would know and you mentioned it earlier is that there's sort of one Son Jarocho song that every American knows, right, which is La Bamba because of the Ritchie Valens hit. In the sort of revival of fandangos and Son Jarocho in California, was that a help or was a that a hindrance? Did that get in the way in terms of real Son Jarocho music? ^M00:18:20 >> Xochi Flores: Well, the fandango didn't come to LA the way we use it now until the early 2000s. Before that we knew Son Jarocho, we played Son Jarocho, but not the way we play it now. We played it the way Los Lobos play it. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. >> Xochi Flores: You know, which is like, it's the way we know it, you know, the way Chicanx communities we grew up knowing it, we grew up dancing [speaking Spanish] and so it was, I don't know if it was a, I think it could be a help because we're so familiar with the music and we loved it, but it could also be a hindrance because we knew it in a performative sense only. And so -- >> Stephen Winick: -- right -- >> Xochi Flores: -- it was kind of a two-sided coin that we were dealing with, and it really depended on the person and the people who were learning it and what they wanted to do with it. There were people who were like, oh, I'm going to start my group and just off and do this, but there were people primarily who just want to be in the fandango to be in the space. So, yeah, La Bamba was like catapulted Son Jarocho into this stratosphere in a different way but, again, it was a performance and it was not the way we play it. It was, I mean at the end Los Lobos do like, Dave does that dingy, dingy, ding, ding, it's insane and we love it, I mean like they're my heroes so. >> Cesar Castro: Yes, I think they help because I come from a different experience, right. So I come from hating the bam bam bamba -- >> Stephen Winick: -- right -- >> Cesar Castro: -- in a group it was like, no, not the American way. That's not the, that's not the traditional because we were revolutionaries in the 90s. That's how we felt trying to do the most traditional way, and we were going to small towns to ranches and the mountains and everywhere in order to get information from early 1900s. So when you hear someone in La Bamba saying bamba, bamba, that was like, no, but 30 years after, 20 years after everything got more calm. And I see La Bamba the Ritchie Valen's Los Lobos version as a good reference for people to link. You know someone who has no idea but they know that one it's like, oh, wait, and then they feel that, okay, now I know a little deeper into that song, into that culture and if they saw the movie and they pay attention to the moment where Ritchie Valens supposedly made the song Jarocho, or if they heard Los Lobos and hear that last version, that last part on tickity, tickity, tickity or if they actually heard the whole album and heard canelo [phonetic] like one of those are Son of Jarochos. So, yeah, depending on the person I think it helped. >> Xochi Flores: Yeah, I think this is my last thing about that. I think that Ritchie Valens did what he did with what he had available to him, right. Access to mojito [phonetic]. He didn't have a lot of access, but what he did, what access he did have he used it and he killed it with that song, right? And then Los Lobos too what they had access to the musicians around town who would teach them sons, who would they would go to the guitar shops and just ask the old men who were there to teach them and this is what they had access to. But when they like, Los Lobos I feel like opened so many doors for us. Like doors were opened for them because they were like, you know, playing it in a way that was palatable for the American public, but then they just busted the doors wide open for all of us and they just were like come on, come through, guys, you know, and so we were able to like really stand on their shoulders and gain more access to mojito and these other traditional ways of playing. >> Stephen Winick: Interesting, yeah. >> Cesar Castro: A song from the 1700s. >> Xochi Flores: Yeah. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah, yeah. I mean it's amazing, right? And, you know, most Americans who hear that song have no idea how old it is or what it means, but it's -- >> Xochi Flores: -- or where it's from traditionally. >> Stephen Winick: Or where it's from, yeah. >> Xochi Flores: They think it's mariachi or something, you know. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah, but you know there's just layers that people can go back and back as you say and find out more about it so, yeah, thanks for talking about that, you know, I know it might be frustrating sometimes to have that be the one thing people know but what can you do? >> Xochi Flores: I know. At least it's something. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah, yeah. And so one thing that both of you brought up both in Mexico and here in the US is the importance of Son Jarocho in kind of political consciousness for different groups. Can you each talk about that in, you know, both in Veracruz and in LA? >> Xochi Flores: Go ahead. >> Cesar Castro: Okay, I'm living in Los Angeles so my connection to Veracruz is through my friends mostly than bring there in the last 15 years even though I go every year, but I hear, I hear the recordings and you can definitely see the young people singing versus you didn't hear ever. They're writing their own and feminism is a big one and some of them are about the corruption in Mexico how bad the country had been because of all these thieves and charge of office. So that's what you hear a lot in the Son Jarocho. In the fandangos, only if you learn the verses or you are able to improvise, you'll hear some of it, but mostly in performance, band's performances that's where you hear some of those new lyrics. Still they sing a lot about love, about nature, some of them are about nature also being endangered but, yeah, that's a third one that I hear a lot concerns about the global health. ^M00:24:52 >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. >> Cesar Castro: But, yeah, that's a lot of what everybody is singing a lot about the violence happening in the 2010, 2006 in Veracruz we got, sorry, I went down because I was leaving and all that was happening. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. >> Cesar Castro: With the cartels it was really had a phase where it was really bad and [inaudible] sang about it. >> Stephen Winick: So all of that was kind of incorporated into the contemporary forms of Jarocho. >> Cesar Castro: And just one more thing even if you don't hear it explicit through versus, the expressions of Son Jarocho in spaces there are demanding something politically. So you'll see it in [inaudible], marches, protests, you'll see Son Jarocho supporting those struggles. >> Xochi Flores: Yeah. >> Stephen Winick: So even if it's not directly in the songs, it's the music is there for the struggle itself. >> Xochi Flores: Uh-huh. Yeah. >> Stephen Winick: Interesting. >> Xochi Flores: I think that Son Jarocho has a long history of being a movement music here in the States with like [inaudible], with Los Lobos playing like farm workers, UFW events and Chicano moratorium stuff I think that it's always been present in all of the movement spaces, but when we went, so I was part of a delegation that went to Veracruz in 2002/2003, we went to intentionally meet with Jarocho musicians and community workers to really look at like what are the parallels in our lives in what we're doing politically and what we're writing and what we're painting or whatever, right? And so it was very intentional and very, you know, politically pointed. So I would say that Son Jarocho here in the States right now is that, is a way to not just express your political ideology but to be present politically. If you're not going to be, you know, part of this organizing body or you're not going to be at a rally, you know, throwing up your fists, you'll be there with your [inaudible], you know. And so I think it's just politically it's become a tool. There's people who just play it and just play it just to have fun, but for the most part everything I use it for has a political intention, you know, whether it be, you know, immigration, Black Lives Matter, you know, gender equity, you know, it's a tool, it's another tool. >> Stephen Winick: So that's, yeah, I mean it's just, you know, really important to talk about the way in which traditional music styles can be, you know, leveraged I guess you could say for these kinds of things because it's always been the case in folk revivals that people use them for this kind of political purpose. Now one thing that's really interesting I think to a lot of Americans is that Son Jarocho is only one of a number of regional Mexican song styles, right? And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the distinctions but also the overlap? I mean because we've had [inaudible] at the Library as an exemplar of Son Jarocho, but he's also an exemplar of [inaudible]. And so how are those distinctions and overlaps managed in the community? >> Cesar Castro: Well, with Spanish influence let's say during the 1600, 1700s when this new part of the world was getting their own sounds, at some point it sounded similar because we'll, I'm going to say well, we all saw the same instruments. We got the viellas [phonetic], we got the harp, we got the violin. So that's where the music was called musika [Spanish word] this is a saying or a way to define the music when you are looking at la tierra, the land, from Spain. That was like your back yard, your new land, your conquer, where you invaded. ^M00:29:47 So that was musika la tierra that was when mariachi music sounded more, way more closer to Son Jarocho or [Spanish word] and musika from [Spanish word] all that it was, we were sharing also verses and forms. The sun is very cyclical in a short, short progression in chords and certain rhythms but then through the centuries each of us we were getting a particular taste and style depending on other influences not just the Spanish but also the slavery or geographically if you're higher or lower that changes completely your mood, your way to express. So, that's another fast way to expose how to explain how the music of Mexico can be similar. The mariachi has got trumpets and arrangements then they separated their sound from Son Jarocho, but if you look at traditional mariachi music, you'll hear the guitars and violins, you know, and some of the huapangos [phonetic] would sound similar to some huapangos in [inaudible] and some huapangos even in Monterey where the play with accordion because they got accordion for accident. >> Stephen Winick: Right. >> Cesar Castro: And [inaudible] and all these big guitars that created their particular sound over centuries, but if you track back, very, very, very traditional or original music you'll hear a [inaudible] very similar to Son Jarocho. Let's not forget about Peninsula Yucatan [inaudible] where they have their guitar. [Inaudible] was in the early 900s he was singing Son Jarochos with Yucateka [phonetic] style, which are beautiful. He has a [inaudible] that I really like. >> Stephen Winick: Interesting, yeah. >> Cesar Castro: With another style and then [inaudible]. So, Mexico [inaudible], chappas [phonetic], chappas is always a little different. Chappas is deep, is special. >> Xochi Flores: They run deep. Cesar Castro: Yes. But, yeah, Mexico you can travel just looking for music in Mexico and have a lot of fun for 10 years. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. >> Xochi Flores: I think the element that really distinguishes Son Jarocho here in the States though is the fandango. It's the ability to participate in a fandango with very novice skills, a skill set, you know, you're still able to participate in something much larger and something very musical and something big, you know, and whole, and I think that element of fandango is what, you know, is what makes Son Jarocho so intriguing and like attractive to so many people. >> Stephen Winick: Great, yeah. And that sort of leads into another question, which is I know that you do a lot of educational activities both with the group but also just individually you do a lot of teaching. So tell us a little bit about those activities as well. >> Xochi Flores: Well, we are part of the music center LA, the music center on tour roster. So there's thousands of schools that are, that are I guess on their radar and so schools will book us, you know, to come out and do assemblies for their students about the history of the music, the instrumentation, the songs, the dancing. ^M00:33:51 And so we have, you know, we do this whole one hour, pretty much an hour presentation on it with maps and scripts that we had to write. And, yeah, it's a lot of fun and it really does give the kids a chance to participate in something, but also to ask more questions like, hey, wait a second, what's my music? What, you know, ask their grandparents at home, you know, what did you listen to? Do you know this music? And so we do that as a group and then, you know, I was teaching dance. At the beginning of the pandemic I was teaching dance online for I don't know a good 6 months and then Cesar and the other band members teach in California State Prisons they teach Son Jarocho and harana in the prison system, and they've been doing that for about 7 years. Cesar also teaches at [inaudible] College. I mean he can tell you all about his -- >> Stephen Winick: -- yeah. >> Cesar Castro: I've been exposed different places. [Laughter] The college, high school, middle school, elementary and cultural -- >> Xochi Flores: -- centers. >> Cesar Castro: Centers and private as well. Online was the latest. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. >> Cesar Castro: My YouTube Channel I have over almost 200 now. Yeah, I didn't count your classes but over 200 sessions, interviews, which are also part, storytelling is very important for me. If you go to my class, I'm going to be playing a whole hour. I'm going to be talking half an hour, of course, combined with playing but, yes, it's very important that students understand and they see some images of Veracruz, of fandangos so that's part of my way of teaching, sharing the culture. That's what I tell them is like, look, I love this, this is who I am, this is where I come from, and I just want to share little by little with you, and if you get really close to me, you might get to taste some of the Jarocho food that I can cook. [Laughter] All our travels to Veracruz, right, if you have the opportunity. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. >> Cesar Castro: But, yes, teaching. Teaching is always a learning experience. It's always different especially in college. I've been teaching for 10 years now, and I see these different generations coming and they are different from each other. I'm liking these new ones. I thought I wasn't going to like them. I was afraid of like, oh, how is this going to go now? But, no, they're very open. I think these political times that they grow up with more appreciative, very, very, it's also liberal arts college, but I can see the difference between the ones from 10 years ago to these ones. Unfortunately, I'm not going to high school anymore, but that was another important. I was going for how do you call it continuation of high school in inner city school, and it was very, very, very interesting there too the experience of teaching the youth, see them engaging into music that when their parents, when we had to perform, their parents would see them playing Son Jarocho they would come to me thanking this very special way that made me feel great and honestly to see how kids from kind of hiding themselves and being all cool and tough some of them they became a group of friends and chilling, jamming. We would introduce our instruments. So anyway teaching is part of our lives as well, and we all do it. Juan Perez teaches bass, he's teaching our daughter now, but he also goes to state prisons and Chuy Sandoval he teaches in elementary schools and prisons as well. Xochi was doing the -- >> Xochi Flores: -- I do re-entry that's right. I do re-entry work with former lifers. It was the best work, you know, and we played harana and then I would say all right everybody put down your instruments we're going to dance and they would just stare at me like, what? I haven't danced in 26 years and I say all the more reason we're going to dance. And it just broke down barriers, it brought joy for the 2 hours that we were there, it was just like, you know, these people were just out of prison some of them for 40 years were, you know, were supposed to be there for life and they were, you know, they needed to be held and sat with and to celebrate life a little bit and that's what we did and it was incredible work. ^M00:39:06 >> Stephen Winick: Yeah, such important work too. What about the actual work in prisons, Cesar? How is that to, you know, to go in there and teach people in those environments? >> Cesar Castro: Yeah, you'll be surprised they are my best students and they're very disciplined, they're very engaged, appreciative and, of course, because they're in there and there was no program for so many years. I think it was for 20, 15 years they didn't have arts so when we came back with instruments and whoever had the experience from before when they disappeared they were incredibly happy and that's the challenge is you have to manage that energy. It's like, okay, okay, okay, hold on, hold on. [Laughter] So let's make some noise, yeah, yeah, yeah. Come on. You have 50 minutes to show us, have the instrument and look at it and do whatever you want because they're so excited, but definitely they have great memory, they remember every single thing, they take notes and when I have a chance to work more than 15 sessions with them, you see, you see how music starts happening, you know, different level and the connection among them. Some of them might not talk to each other out in the yard. >> Stephen Winick: Right. >> Cesar Castro: But inside the class they are one and they learn it. I don't have to say it just because in the first classes sometimes you get the ones who are just wandering around and seeing if they get credit for just sitting down doing nothing. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. >> Cesar Castro: I have no one doing nothing. There's no space for you to do something to participate. So, yes, we have some movement. Dancing as Xochi said. It's hard. If you tell them, okay, let's dance, get up, no one is going to get up. >> Stephen Winick: Right. >> Cesar Castro: No one is weak. [Laughter] So, but if you tell them, okay, let's clap, okay, everyone can clap, let's clap and stomp and then they find it challenging, ah, right, so now get up let's do this. Move to your right and left and when they don't know they're dancing. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah, right. >> Cesar Castro: But it becomes this challenge, personal challenge of them and at the same time they're developing [inaudible]? >> Xochi Flores: Motor skills. >> Cesar Castro: Motor skills and musically, musicianship? >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. >> Cesar Castro: So it is, it is very special. I like it that's the reason I've been doing it for all of this time, and it's never been dangerous just in case someone is wondering, oh, my God, because I go to level 4, 3, 2, and 4 is the highest. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. >> Cesar Castro: And what I find is the level 4 people are a little more challenging because they went through rough experiences in life before whatever they did that's a pattern that we all know or should know that they weren't born that way and, yes, when I went to that level 4 I saw the difference between those in level 2, but in the bottom is always very, very -- >> Xochi Flores: - Human. >> Cesar Castro: Human, yes. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. >> Cesar Castro: And rich, you know, you can work. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. >> Xochi Flores: I think the majority, what we're doing in prisons or what they're doing in prisons what I did in re-entry was so contrary to what they have to be to survive in there or what they're taught or how they're treated. Like it re-instills this humanity and a sense of like, oh, this is another person, and I think that like that's the main thing and they're able to let their guard down for 3 hours or 2 hours and they're able to talk to people. I told this story once where I think they thought there was going to be an emergency or a riot so there was a, they always have a sharpshooter around, you know, you can just imagine you're in a prison you're kind of at the bottom and there's always a sharpshooter kind of like around on top just monitoring, right. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. >> Xochi Flores: For some reason the guy they said everybody on the ground. They put everybody on the ground and the guy shot like 1 bullet in the air whatever. So all of the inmates are on the ground, all the students, and Cesar and the other teacher are not, we're not allowed to be on the ground with them, but Cesar said that while all of this was happening he saw 2 students, you know, teaching each other the chords on the floor. [Laughter] You know. That was just beautiful like it's just something that they were like, okay, yeah, that's happening but we're here, you know, we're still here, we're present for each other, for ourselves. ^M00:44:04 >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. Amazing story, yeah. So, you know, maybe we're doing his backwards but so now we've talked about you teaching but, you know, I also wanted to find out how each of you learned the music and what's the process, you know, first of all, you know, maybe in Veracruz if that's where you learned, Cesar, and then also here. >> Cesar Castro: Yes, I was 13 years old, and I was a city kid from Veracruz over a million people probably right now it's hitting 2 million people. It has different districts now probably 3 getting together that's how much the city is growing. So I grew up like that. No tradition, no nothing. But once I heard this little guitar in the middle school because I was looking for a friend, and it caught my attention and when I played it, I was like, oh, feels great, what is this? What is this little guitar? And from there I wanted to learn and learn just that, just that little guitar. Going from that small room with few people my dad takes me to casa [inaudible], which is a cultural center in downtown. And that's where I met [inaudible] Blanco, [inaudible], and more people that have a larger environment with women, older people, younger people, and I felt perfect. Okay, this is, I didn't know that that's what you called community or anything. I didn't know any of those words and I was enjoying that. There was dancing happening, there was [inaudible] harana, and they also had [inaudible] instrument making workshop. So I was in a nice universe. So they took me to fandangos. Once I went to fandango on the countryside small town I remember getting there late at night I didn't know where I was, but it was, I was familiar with ranch because my family also comes from there so we would visit the ranchero, but that was, fandango was amazing. It was just magical. And thought's when I, I remembered just telling myself this is it, that's it. I want to come back here as much as possible, and I did it. So Heberto and the other members of [inaudible] Blanco they were developing some Jarocho fandango in different places from probably 6 years before I joined and I would go with him to those places, they invited me, and I was just learning from different regions hearing conversations of my teacher with other elder and having whatever they served I would eat it or drink it and just assimilating everything. I wouldn't say no to anything, anything, and that's how I learned. And I went to music school for 2 years to study cello. >> Stephen Winick: Did that give you some of the basics of theory at least? >> Cesar Castro: Oh, yes, I kept going to private lessons because I had to move from Veracruz and, yes, definitely it helped me, and I promote that too. >> Stephen Winick: Great. >> Xochi Flores: So for me I grew up here, I'm from here, my parents are from here, my grandparents are from here, but we have strong roots, right. I didn't have a lot of contact with Mexico at all growing up, but I did have contact with Mexican music. And, again, Los Lobos were a part of my childhood because I'm a movement kid. My parents were part of the Chicano movement in the 60s, in the 70s and 80s I grew up at meetings and fundraisers and rent parties and demonstrations. And so the movement music and Los Lobos was [inaudible] aliens, all these guys were like playing music. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. >> Xochi Flores: And so I danced [inaudible] pretty much my whole life and so it wasn't that, it wasn't foreign to me at all except that the way these guys were playing it was different, and I was like, oh, when I heard them play when they came to LA I was like, oh, man, this is amazing. And I didn't necessarily want to learn at that time, but my brother is a musician [inaudible]. And so he invited me, he's like, hey, come on, you're a writer because I pretty much I wrote like grants for all the artists in LA, I'm a grant writer, I'm a music lover, I didn't think of becoming a practitioner until I started going to fandangos and I thought I can do this, I think I can play, and I think I can dance like this too. ^M00:49:13 And so I just was practicing. Cesar taught me a lot, [inaudible] taught me a lot of dance. Ramon [inaudible], Heberto, like all of them I just learned from as many people as I could while in Veracruz and then when folks would come out and then I stole Cesar, stole his heart. [Laughter] >> Stephen Winick: Good plan. >> Xochi Flores: And so, you know, I just kept learning the last 17, 18 years just been learning and learning and learning. So that's my trajectory with it. >> Stephen Winick: Amazing. And I should say for our viewers that not only do we have Cesar and Xochi on our website we have [inaudible] as well, your brother that you mentioned. We have a concert that he was in. So look on our website for more from these great musicians. So one thing that's interesting that's been touched on a little bit is that, you know, Son Jarocho has these kind of markers in it of rural life, you know, like the donkey's jaw born and those kind of things and yet here in LA, for example, you know, it's pretty urban music now. So how is that, how does that distinction get made or how do those markers fit in I guess? >> Xochi Flores: We still use them. We still, you know, they are very much a part of our repertoire. We, they're our foundation really and then anything we add on like Juan's electric upright bass or [inaudible] pattern that's more hip hop we just incorporate it, you know. I think that, you know, we're pretty escuela when it comes to a Son Jarocho group. We follow the tradition in many, many, many ways and we respect it, but we also I don't want to say toy with it, but we also kind of like bring another facet of our [inaudible] and our urban, we're urban, you know. Yeah, you hear Juan's bass and you do not hear like, oh, that dude is from the ranchero. No, you hear like that guy grew up in LA, he's playing Chicano music, you know, playing with everybody, but it's still a traditional sound but, yeah, with this twist or this like punch where it's like, huh-uh, we're here too. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah, and I think it's so important that traditional music do that so, yeah. Yes, Cesar? >> Cesar Castro: Yes, Son Jarocho have the, have had? >> Xochi Flores: Has had. >> Cesar Castro: Has had, excuse, has had this interaction with cities seems back in the 1920s, 30s, 50s, 80s, 90s so it's always and Jarochos before they were I'm going to [speaking Spanish]. >> Xochi Flores: He's going to dare to say. >> Cesar Castro: Dare to say -- >> Stephen Winick: -- yeah. >> Cesar Castro: They were more curious about playing in other music genres with instruments, which is another way to challenge that traditional vest. It's like, okay, let me take it down and do something fun because I'm a musician first so, yes, that's something that we shouldn't forget and back in the 70s like [inaudible] from Mexico City they were doing some jazz arrangements playing Son Jarocho with drums. So that's another reason I have a podcast so that new generations can always listen to something that has been done so when they come to Son Jarocho and they throw a jamba [phonetic] it's like, oh, I'm invading, I'm doing a [inaudible]. Yeah, you can think that but you're not the first and if you want the [inaudible], here you go. Listen to this, this and this groups that already they've done something in your path. So, yes, it's -- >> Xochi Flores: -- yes, I think it's important to learn the tradition before you start messing with it. Like really learn it, really, you know, have your teachers, have maestros, maestras, really like listen, do a lot of listening first before you start adding your own elements. We add electric guitar too on our second album Constelacion de Sonidos, Constellation of Sounds, we added electric guitar and there's a song in there called [inaudible], which is a take on a traditional song El [inaudible] where in the tradition they say stop singing, stop singing because you're going to get me in trouble or you're going to wake me up or whatever they say, you know. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. >> Xochi Flores: But we say because we're from LA and we hear the roosters in our neighborhoods we say don't stop singing because you're reminding me of home, don't stop singing because you're bringing nostalgia and this felicidad, this happiness to me that reminds me of a place that I yearn for, you know. And I think with our electric guitar, you know, and I think that's our way of paying homage to not only the music but also the people who had to come here and left home behind but tried to make home here and brought the roosters and whatever you know. >> Stephen Winick: Right. So, yeah, so we should, you know, tell our viewers that you can find Los Cambalache online and you should look for Cesar's YouTube Channel as well as his podcast and you should look for the recordings because there's a lot of stuff out there where you can not only hear the music but learn a lot more about it. So I guess one more question that I have for both of you is what are the future plans for Cambalache? >> Xochi Flores: Well, we're going to continue doing our teaching because that really does give us life and literally livelihood, but also like I think, you know, we're going to probably record again and see what happens really just try to keep evolving. >> Cesar Castro: Yes, we're back in the tour and at schools as Xochi mentioned with the music center, and we are recording singles at this point. A whole album is very, very challenging for different reasons so we have this arrangement of Lamanta [phonetic], which is a traditional song and Lamanta is a piece of cloth. >> Xochi Flores: It's [inaudible], yeah. >> Cesar Castro: And we use that to sing about Black Lives Matter, but talking to people especially Latinx who don't get it especially if you're an immigrant, if you're Mexican, I'm going to talk for the people I can talk about like Mexicans don't get it. It's like, wow, why Black Lives Matter? They start getting into nonsense argument. So I'm singing about it imagine yourself in this position, please, like put yourself there and understand why Black Lives Matter right now. So we're recording that one. I hoping we can release it with a video as well. Chuy is supposed to come today to start recording. >> Stephen Winick: All right. >> Cesar Castro: Maybe later today we'll do the bass. That's where we are. >> Stephen Winick: Good luck with all of that. I guess we'd better let you go in that case so you can prepare. >> Xochi Flores: Yeah, thanks for having us. >> Cesar Castro: Yes, thank you. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah, thank you for talking to us and just to remind everyone you can find the concert from Cambalache on our website along with this interview. So please do look for that and all the other great Son Jarocho concerts that we've had over the years. So one more time thank you to Cesar and Xochi and I should say Cesar Castro and Xochi Flores for giving us this interview and also for performing in our concert series both on the stage of the Coolidge Auditorium once and virtually in our Homegrown at Home Series. Thank you both so much once again. >> Xochi Flores: Thanks for having us and thank you to Chuy and Juan who couldn't be here but who, you know, are also here. >> Stephen Winick: Absolutely. Thanks to them as well. It was a great show so a great concert that you put on for us. ^E00:58:01